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Author Topic: G.fast deployment decisions  (Read 5687 times)

niemand

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G.fast deployment decisions
« on: May 11, 2016, 04:48:40 PM »

Was just thinking to myself, what kind of criteria do you guys think BT will be using to decide where to deploy G.fast and how soon?

This is interesting as it has the extra influence within it, alongside the usual cost, premises addressable without pushing fibre deeper, access to power, that there's existing FTTC in many areas.

Will BT be tempted to leave areas such as this one with very high FTTC take up on that FTTC for longer to sweat the assets and make the money some more, or would they push on with G.fast more rapidly?

Likewise would they prioritise areas where FTTC has been relatively weakly taken up, take the hit on obsoleting the nodes, and push on with G.fast to try and increase NGA uptake? I say that though, of course, there's the non-trivial chance that those nodes will be involved in NGA 2 either through access boards with G.fast chips on them, or even being used as OLTs to deliver FTTP. There are ways to sweat those assets some more.

I suspect they'll be way more inclined to set about areas passed by Virgin Media and other competitors as a priority, with areas where FTTC has seen weak sales at the top of that list.

I fully imagine that they would be tempted to leave areas where FTTC is selling well alone for now unless additional competitive pressures arise.

Of course I shouldn't forget that we won't be dealing with cabinets anymore but smaller sub-divisions down to DP area. Would Openreach perhaps deploy to the extremes of distance from FTTC cabinets where feasible to improve experience of those further away?

Pretty much cold, cynical deployment decisions focused on spending as little as possible, as would be expected. Whether my speculation is accurate or not I've no idea, so what are you guys' thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 04:50:52 PM by Ignitionnet »
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Dave2150

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2016, 05:07:42 PM »

As I understand it, G.fast will initially be deployed from a new cabinet alongside the current FTTC cabinet - so no new fiber going to the DP. Logically it will be existing FTTC areas that get G.Fast first.

This will only benefit those with very short lines, I imagine 300M or less.

Those like I with 600-1000M will simply not be able to order.
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kitz

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2016, 05:44:11 PM »

Hard to say.  Bean counters will be involved and theres lots of factors that could sway the decision.
I'd think they'd look at take up in area.  If those on cabs using 40/10 even if the line is capable of higher speeds, would be less likely to up g.fast services. 
Virgin will be factored, but its never put them off entering VM areas in the past - again it will depend on what service speeds VM are offering... but as you say, that could sway things the other way and realise ROI could be better where there is no competition.

But based on historic form and how denser areas are usually where they do first,  I wouldn't be too surprised if they focused on fairly affluent estates, probably with multi-users more likely to utilise more bandwidth.. and of course easy access to a node.   But other than that I don't have a clue about Openreach logic.
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Bowdon

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 05:52:33 PM »

An interesting post and question.

I noticed in the thread on the forum about ordering FTTP from BT it was in an area where FTTC was available.

I'm not sure how BT / OR decide which telephone exchanges get FTTP and which don't. My exchange as more customers and businesses, yet another down the road, nearly in to the countryside area with less people and less businesses get an FTTP option.

You make a good point about the competative nature in some areas. I know in my area Virgin Media are going 'hell for leather' building their network in the town. Nearly every phone symbol on roadworks website is VM.

I can understand BT first doing the G.fast from the cabinet.. then expanding out.

On an aside node, if that does happen would their be less cross talk in the cabinet for those remaining on FTTC?
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 06:26:41 PM »

depends if there is political driving behind it, I am convinced their fttc rollout was influenced by political needs with it been mainly rural early rollout.

If its purely commercial reasons then VM areas will likely be prioritised. Alongside areas with highest number of lines close to cabinet.
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Ronski

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2016, 06:59:23 PM »

According to the following the bean counters won't let them roll out to DP  :(

http://gfastnews.com/index.php/90-r/217-british-telecom-economics-of-g-fast-distribution-points-are-untenable

Hopefully they will see sense.
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 07:05:21 PM »

This seems like a bad decision to me. They're again not investing now but they will have to do so again in the future. Just seems like really bad foresight to me.
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 07:31:57 PM »

Well what did you guys expect? the pressure is off from ofcom, so BT revert to type.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 02:20:52 AM »

Man, you ask the difficult questions!

This really requires a multi-faceted answer ... so I might have to do this in multiple parts.

Here goes part 1.

A) Politics

I don't think politics plays much of a part here, with 3 aspects.

i) Current "operational" politics (ie MP complaints) cares about where superfast speeds aren't happening. They don't care about where ultrafast is happening
ii) Current "strategic" politics cares that ultrafast is happening, but only cares that there are many millions being targetted.
iii) BT state that G.Fast is "at the core" of their ultrafast strategy. Meanwhile, fibre should be at the core of UK strategy as far as the regulator is concerned.

I think BT will need to keep credibility at a strategic level, delivering suitable speeds to be available at enough homes by 2020. I think they hope to quieten the regulator by showing the results with copper in the loop.

In fact, I can see copper evading the "fibre end-game" for a couple of decades. If that is true, politicians will need to face up to that prospect.

B) What does BT say about this?

GFastNews has a "realistically cynical" editor, who probably gets to see more of what BT is telling the telco insiders than we regularly get to see ourselves. If (as per @Ronski's post) he thinks BT are only going to work from the cabinets, then there's a good chance this reflects BT's thinking at the time.

I agree with the start of the story: The gist of Peter Bell's statement is that deploying to 4 million DP's is untenable. We won't be seeing it.

But Peter Bell doesn't quite go as far as saying that they will only deploy from the PCP either. He talks about how the capability of G.Fast is better than expected, and how a couple of amendments will make things more viable.

We've all heard of the talk about speeds of 300Mbps in early phases, and 500Mbps in later phases. I think the amendments they have in mind are ones that bring those speeds to distances around 300m - ie first 300Mbps at 300m, and later 500Mbps at 300m. Approximately.

Peter Bell, on lightreading, 8 months ago: http://www.lightreading.com/gigabit/dsl-vectoring-gfast/bt-gets-gfast-confidence-boost-from-trials/d/d-id/718456
Peter Bell, being interviewed 8 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJyCkRSIsYY

C) What are the amendments to G.Fast?

A Sckipio video, from 3 months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T8Iuejy9Jo

Right now, G.Fast is better than the ITU targets. The trials probably use this equipment; this "base" level of G.Fast is (I think) labelled "amendment 1". The pilot is likely to use this level of equipment too.

The first amendments wanted by BT target G.Fast nodes (called DPUs) to be further away from homes. This requires higher power, and higher bits/tone. The chipset manufacturers have this running (and call this the current level of performance); in standardisation, this will be labelled "amendment 2" - perhaps due towards the end of 2016. This improves performance in the 150m-400m range, boosting speeds at 250m by 200Mbps (see that video from Sckipio).

The next set of amendments (perhaps pushed by non-BT telcos) target the 212MHz spectrum. This "amendment 3" is further away in standardisation, but it seems to give improvements up to 200m - resulting in 2Gbps (total) at 0m down to 1Gbps (total) at 200m.

I reckon we could see BT relying on "amendment 2" performance to meet their "300Mbps" targets, then relying on "amendment 3" to meet the 500Mbps targets. But I could see a further strategy where they target nearer gigabit (more later).

 .... more tomorrow ....
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WWWombat

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 12:18:19 PM »

And here's the rest.

It is a complicated picture of network optimisation, so you'd think @Ignition would have a good handle on this ;)

C2) Future amendments to G.Fast

Is 500Mbps the end of G.Fast? I don't think so - it can offer more, but will do so only at shorter ranges.

If BT want to keep G.Fast at the core of a hyperfast strategy, not just an ultrafast one (and I think they do), they will need to gradually shorten those lines.

D) Driven by Bean Counters

Yes, the money will drive this.

Income
The "superfast" (largely FTTC) rollout ended up being a "just in time" rollout that rode the wave of HD IPTV, which has led to quite high takeup relative to BT's original expectations. But I don't think there is a similar "mass wave" willing to jump onto real ultrafast speeds. There might be demand from 5% of properties (reasonable), and it might be as high as 40% (I doubt it). The bean counters will have to figure out where this market is, to get the biggest step in takeup.

If BT targets a DPU at the PCP, and the 300m circle around it, then they will only be addressing people who can already achieve 80Mbps. What percentage will crave a jump to 300Mbps? 5%? 10%

If BT targets a DPU 400m away from the DPU, then they will be addressing people who can achieve 50Mbps-ish. Maybe you'll target more. Put your DPU further away, and you're likely to attract more custom.

A PCP-only strategy might hit the "homes passed" counter quickly, but may fail on the "takeup" counter.

Expenditure
The fibre runs will be much shorter this time, so will be less of the cost. Stepping 300-500m away from the cabinet might not be the hurdle that many people fear. However, power will be a primary issue - even when it is already on-site at the PCP.

If BT can power a DPU with a 240V supply, then this might be all they end up doing: one node at the PCP, on an extension lead ;)

However, if BT have to go to the trouble of installing a power pillar, with 240V->50V conversion, then a single DPU at the PCP might not be a worthwhile return on that expenditure. If so, expect more DPUs inserted (say) 300-500m out from the PCP.

But that will only happen if power from the pillar can reach that 300-500m distance. I'm not sure.

On balance, from an income and expenditure perspective, I can see it being better to deploy more nodes than "just" at the PCP.

E) How big a market?

Actual speeds at VM tells us there is a market for top tier of only around 10%. And a "barely ultrafast" market for the next 30%, though some of these might be "reluctant ultrafast", having received a "free" upgrade from the speed they originally chose the middle tier for.

But, these comparisons pre-supposes that VM is a direct competitor to BT, and I'm not sure it is entirely. When you bring TV into consideration, there's a good chunk of VM - half perhaps - that get labelled as "premium TV" (and a bigger chunk of Sky). The premium bundles tend to include faster broadband as a matter of course. BT's TV offering isn't going to convert these people, so it isn't worth considering what they might do about broadband choices.

Back in the "BT-based DSL" market, less than 25% have even bothered to jump to superfast speeds. That doesn't suggest there's an ultrafast market anywhere close to that size.

I could be persuaded that the ultrafast market is as big as 10%, I think.

F) Driven by Competition?

There is certainly a prospect for VM to dominate speeds - through Docsis 3.0 and 3.1, but only if VM become serious with their (hidden) network upgrades to increase the number of channels shared through segments. @Ignition believes they are indeed serious. Past behaviour leaves many doubters.

That might be enough to say that BT will have to respond - and concentrate on defending market share in VM areas.

On the other hand, the commercial FTTC rollout seems to have covered just as much non-VM area as VM area, and didn't bother with a significant chunk of VM coverage (more than one-fifth). Maybe they're not too worried.

Of course, VM are expanding, so there will be another chunk of territory to defend. I could see BT targetting places that VM are trying to expand into, for sure.

G) Income Again

There's likely more incremental income (ie an extra £10 per month) from people further away from FTTC cabs

There's likely more old custom to retain by focussing on "project lightning" areas, to prevent loss of all income (~ £40pm)

There's likely some new custom to be gained by focussing on old VM areas.


H) Forget "up to". What about the minimum speeds?

In the FTTC rollout, there have been few anomolies where ADSL gives higher speeds than VDSL2. You'd imagine that, with G.Fast, they wouldn't want too many anomolies showing there either.

If you deploy to the PCP, there is little point in offering service to actual speeds below 100Mbps. You might argue a higher level to that too, for marketing reasons.

That limits the range you would ever want to allow G.Fast deployments. 400m? 500m maximum?

I) Phased Deployments

BT's current plans allow for commercial deployment to run for 8 years - twice as long as the FTTC deployment. That gives them plenty of time to deploy with a phased approach - especially as the hardware continues to be developed in phases.

It might well be true that the initial phases make use of G.Fast's abilities at 300-400m, but future phases might then target higher speeds at shorter range.

How do you achieve that shorter range, while still using the nodes built previously? By placing new nodes at (say) the halfway point, and reducing the maximum range for everyone.

I could therefore see a plan that chooses to deploy DPU nodes at PCP and at 500m. Offering 100-300 with "amendment 2" technology, 200-500 with "amendment 3" technology. Much later, infill could occur at 250m and 750m, turning everyone's lines into something capable of 500-1000.

J) The cost of FTTP

The longevity of G.Fast, and future technical advances into multi-gigabit territory, all depends on the relative cost of FTTP - itself a moving target.

You would imagine that whatever steps are taken with G.Fast deployment, it will always include an element that makes future deployment of FTTP (either native or FoD) cheaper.

There is one line of thought that, eventually, G.Fast will kill itself off by making FTTP cheap enough to be guaranteed to be the next step. There is also a line of thought that, for brownfield, there will never be a reason to force copper out.

I don't know where the end-game will be any more.

K) Overall Thoughts

I think it is far too simplistic to say that "PCP-only" is the deployment style. It has the possibility to be cheapest, but it won't bring in the best income.

If BT are going to attempt "deeper fibre", then the best places to try it are a) Project Lightning areas, and b) VM areas, but they might need to develop their TV offering to make worthwhile inroads.

I don't automatically preclude BDUK areas, as I don't think they will cost more to upgrade (especially in a PCP-only model).

I think G.Fast has longevity beyond the next 8 years, so I think BT will deploy /this time around/ with a view to what they might do /next time around/. I can see them having rough plans to deploy at 0m (ie at PCP), at 400m and at 800m. In the distant future, they can infill at 200m, 600m, 1km.

But between now and 2020, I'd say a fair degree of PCP-only (including some BDUK locations), with 400m deployments in VM areas.
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ktz392837

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 01:59:00 PM »

Let's hope BT make an effort and if they go for several manufacturers for rollout they put a decent legally binding agreement that all cabs must be able to run (not only compatible) the proposed amendment 3.  if not the manufacturer sorts it out within 6m or pay for a replacement cab that does work.

I am probably 550m away from the cab and get 60Mbs and believe to be hit quite significantly by crosstalk is there any hope of using gfast if it only gets installed at first at the cab?

Extra upload speed would be useful but I usually try and support new technology so as long as it isn't ultra expensive I will upgrade.  Thanks
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Ronski

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 02:50:38 PM »

Great write up WWWombat, I too feel they will eventually install G.Fast further out into the network, as it seems logically the next step in building out the fibre network, and thus gradually extending it over time.

I'm about 450 meters, but I don't hold out much hope for G.Fast for me as my line performs like it's much longer.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 02:59:50 PM »

In terms of the G.Fast Cab location will they try to put it right next to the regular PCPs as if they put it next to the FTTC cabinet it will knock anywhere up to 50m off the range.

Wish we could see a extended view of the Skipio graph as 160/30 looks possible at 450m perhaps.

As my Line is 300m from the PCP or closer to 350m from the FTTC cab the placement could be crucial.
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 03:07:13 PM »

What they doing is managing expectations and the cheapest strategy as thats the lowest risk.

From BT's point of view a cabinet only rollout with low sales is better than a DP rollout with moderate sales, as deploying to DP's has a significantly higher cost.

I agree that what's happening now will not be the end of it, when that cabinet based rollout is done they will either extend to DP's or use a newer technology after, but this cabinet only rollout now is what makes sense given BT's history.

ADSL to FTTC was always going to have decent takeup as the average speed of ADSL was very low for the services available, its not so clear cut with FTTC vs G.FAST.  Even a poor FTTC line with say 20mbit/sec is good enough speed for almost everything.
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niemand

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Re: G.fast deployment decisions
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 10:28:10 AM »

Wouldn't have asked for thoughts if it were clear-cut  :)

VM have made room in the spectrum for more channels than they are using right now. In theory they could go to 500Mb+ in some areas relatively quickly, potentially within days.

They have nothing to fear from G.fast in terms of headline data rates. By the time G.fast is in its 3rd incarnation they'll be happily ticking over on DOCSIS 3.1 with the 1.2-1.7GHz networks to match.

Kitz - I mentioned Virgin, however VM don't put Openreach off, quite the opposite. Openreach get lower take up, yes, however when they get a customer back from cable due to FTTC they are making both the FTTC charge and line rental where they weren't before so there's considerably more incremental revenue there than where they are a monopoly.

Openreach have no political axe to grind as far as getting ultrafast to match Virgin's coverage goes. Even if VM were to stop Project Lightning now Openreach still wouldn't have as many homes passed with, as the definition now seems, >=300Mb.

So we now know that Openreach are unlikely to deploy deeper fibre for now. They can hit their 10 million premises of G.fast quite happily without doing so.

The question now is which 10 million premises. Obviously these will be FTTC enabled premises, however how do they choose where to go and when? Are they encouraged to deploy G.fast or deterred from doing so in areas with high take up? What impact will Virgin Media have? Especially with regards to Project Lightning taking subscribers from FTTC rather than the reverse?

My own area should be interesting. Very high FTTC take up, Project Lightning just rolled in, going live soon, and, at least in the rest of the area, showing very high take up. On an exchange level Lightning has just enabled nearly half of all premises passed by the exchange, none of which have especially good ADSL speeds, some of which didn't have FTTC, Openreach will have seen their customer numbers take a hit.

The exchange is well connected to a 21CN metro node, has abundant fibre, plenty of space for any new equipment that might be needed there. It should be a good demonstration of whether Openreach intend to prioritise areas to defend their market share against Lightning or attempt to win share back.

If VM uptake in my local area specifically is very high Openreach may be left with an empty or almost empty DSLAM with little prospect of getting many customers back on it. All properties are also fully ducted so there could even be a question mark over whether the maths would 'work' with regards to FTTP, potentially even using the existing 2nd DSLAM. OLT cards, 10Gb backhaul, done.

Interesting times ahead.
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