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Author Topic: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016  (Read 19773 times)

licquorice

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2016, 10:26:42 PM »

Hmm, not sure about the forced mode on downstream as I'm sure G.Inp had been implemented on my cab before I updated my TP Link TD-W9980 to G.Inp capability. Surely if Mode2 had been implemented I would have lost service.
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2016, 10:37:14 PM »

So why not just set it to preferred on the downstream (and on the upstream on Huawei cabs)? Is it because the end-user modems are fibbing and claiming to support G.INP when they actually don't?
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2016, 11:29:51 PM »

Hmm, not sure about the forced mode on downstream as I'm sure G.Inp had been implemented on my cab before I updated my TP Link TD-W9980 to G.Inp capability. Surely if Mode2 had been implemented I would have lost service.

iirc it was just doing G.INP in downstream direction (same as the ECI modem/HH5A). 
The TD-W9980 was seeing same >10Mpbs speed decrease and increased latency as the ECI modems and HH5A which also supposedly support downstream only. 

G.INP Mk1 tried to put users on upstream G.INP, which because the above 3 didnt do... it forced them to have a high rate of interleave and FEC applied.   The Openreach fix (aka G.INP Mk2) for the ECI modems and HH5A's, was simply to swap from G.INP/INP first to FAST mode first.   No changes were made to the DSLAMS.. just the way the DLM was configured.

The new f/w released by TP-link enabled g.inp support both up and down as can be seen from the beta test f/w where you could see it was enabled both on upstream and downstream (ndirection) - link.

Quote
nReturn=0 nDirection=0 bTrellisEnable=1 bBitswapEnable=1 bReTxEnable=1 bVirtualNoiseSupport=0 b20BitSupport=0
nReturn=0 nDirection=1 bTrellisEnable=1 bBitswapEnable=1 bReTxEnable=1 bVirtualNoiseSupport=0 b20BitSupport=0

nReturn=0 nChannel=0 nDirection=0 nNFEC=32 nRFEC=16 nLSYMB=16 nINTLVDEPTH=1 nINTLVBLOCK=32 nLPATH=0
nReturn=0 nChannel=0 nDirection=1 nNFEC=32 nRFEC=16 nLSYMB=16 nINTLVDEPTH=1 nINTLVBLOCK=32 nLPATH=0
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2016, 11:42:31 PM »

So why not just set it to preferred on the downstream (and on the upstream on Huawei cabs)?

Million dollar question and easy solution IMHO.  However it seems Openreach doesnt like the fact that EU's may try change settings themselves.
They have got decidedly funny about anything which gives the EU some control.. they obviously dont want EU's to be able to turn it off if they have a modem that gives them that sort of control :(

Quote
Is it because the end-user modems are fibbing and claiming to support G.INP when they actually don't?

Not quite sure what you mean by that.  If its what I think you mean, then no.
If it didnt support it.. (on a Huawei at least) then you could find yourself in the same position as with the Draytek and the guy who had to assign it to the loft.  Its probably why Draytek are offering ~100 off a newer model if you trade in your Vigor 2850... and admitting defeat that g.inp wont work at all on those routers.
If you dont have the g.inp update for ECI modems.. its why also Openreach was warning about the PPP issue way back in Jan 2015.

ejs.. could probably answer better than me as he's been poking around f/w.

What quite doesnt tie up with me.. is how a full reset to open profile will give you a few days to supposedly download the updated ECI f/w.
Openreach appear to be forcing g.inp except on open profile..  so is it DLM forcing it rather than the DSLAM?   Something is.

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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2016, 12:06:21 AM »

It seems clear that a quick solution is to give the CPs (or the EU's) the ability to toggle g.fast off, that means it can be enabled again nation wide, but when end users ring their isp to report its broken, then the CP can turn it off on a per line basis, but as kitz said openreach seem obsessed with not giving out any form of control other than allowing an isp to choose one of 3 stability profiles.

They also probably wouldnt have this issue if they enforced what modems could be used on the network, instead of the free for all we have now.  With devices like the fritzbox and asus modems ignoring standards.
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2016, 07:45:46 AM »

What quite doesnt tie up with me.. is how a full reset to open profile will give you a few days to supposedly download the updated ECI f/w.
I thought OR had said they run a process to enable G.INP on a regular basis and will continue to do so.
Quote
Any new and refreshed lines are being moved over to the Retransmission policy each night and we will continue to trawl our Huawei estate each month to move new adds/DLM resets onto the new profiles ad infinitum.
and
Quote
If a line is reset then it will initially move back to interleaved downstream and fast mode upstream. Retransmission will be applied again after a few days.
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licquorice

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2016, 08:46:42 AM »

Hmm, not sure about the forced mode on downstream as I'm sure G.Inp had been implemented on my cab before I updated my TP Link TD-W9980 to G.Inp capability. Surely if Mode2 had been implemented I would have lost service.

iirc it was just doing G.INP in downstream direction (same as the ECI modem/HH5A). 
The TD-W9980 was seeing same >10Mpbs speed decrease and increased latency as the ECI modems and HH5A which also supposedly support downstream only. 

G.INP Mk1 tried to put users on upstream G.INP, which because the above 3 didnt do... it forced them to have a high rate of interleave and FEC applied.   The Openreach fix (aka G.INP Mk2) for the ECI modems and HH5A's, was simply to swap from G.INP/INP first to FAST mode first.   No changes were made to the DSLAMS.. just the way the DLM was configured.

The new f/w released by TP-link enabled g.inp support both up and down as can be seen from the beta test f/w where you could see it was enabled both on upstream and downstream (ndirection) - link.

Quote
nReturn=0 nDirection=0 bTrellisEnable=1 bBitswapEnable=1 bReTxEnable=1 bVirtualNoiseSupport=0 b20BitSupport=0
nReturn=0 nDirection=1 bTrellisEnable=1 bBitswapEnable=1 bReTxEnable=1 bVirtualNoiseSupport=0 b20BitSupport=0

nReturn=0 nChannel=0 nDirection=0 nNFEC=32 nRFEC=16 nLSYMB=16 nINTLVDEPTH=1 nINTLVBLOCK=32 nLPATH=0
nReturn=0 nChannel=0 nDirection=1 nNFEC=32 nRFEC=16 nLSYMB=16 nINTLVDEPTH=1 nINTLVBLOCK=32 nLPATH=0

Ah, OK. I was under the impression that it didn't support G.Inp in either directiion until the firmware update.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2016, 09:47:52 AM »

@Dray.
What I meant is.. if it was DSLAM configured, then how does 'open profile' over-ride it.

There now appears to be 2 different sorts of reset.
1.) That which sets Interleave on as default as described by Ian last year & what we see in most cases.
2.) Total reset back to Open Profile with absolutely no DLM configuration at all.  This lasts for about 48hrs max before the DLM does its thing.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2016, 01:32:04 PM »

What quite doesnt tie up with me.. is how a full reset to open profile will give you a few days to supposedly download the updated ECI f/w.
Openreach appear to be forcing g.inp except on open profile..  so is it DLM forcing it rather than the DSLAM?   Something is.

I thought the general principle was that DLM sets out what ought to happen, with a variety of configuration property settings, including some minimums and maximums (and we don't get to see all of these), and the DSLAM follows a channel initialisation policy that attempts to maximise X, minimise Y (etc) within constraints set by those DLM configuration properties.

I think that a DLM reset, of either variety, fundamentally changes the set of DLM configuration properties to something that either a) turns G.INP off and turns interleaving off; or b) turns G.INP off, and turns interleaving on downstream. I haven't figured out why there might be two different starting points, or why they might be chosen.

When DLM "turns on G.INP", it makes another fundamental change to the configuration properties, that allows retransmission to activate (forced or optional? Interesting debate), but the DSLAM continues to follow a policy of minimisation/maximisation that gives it freedom to alter some of the detailed outcome. This freedom means that some chipset/modem implementations can end up with a different detailed outcome, even if DLM starts out asking for the same thing.

What gives DLM the ability to choose to "turn on G.INP" for a line?

I thought OR had said they run a process to enable G.INP on a regular basis and will continue to do so.

I think this is a process running "above" DLM - a new supervisor process whose job is to determine what options DLM is allowed to choose for an individual line. As far as G.INP/retransmission is concerned, it looks like the default setting here is: "don't consider" - that DLM (in it's nightly decision process) isn't allowed to even consider retransmission as one of the "solutions" to a line in ILQ-RED/CRIMSON/SCARLET.

The supervisor level might then take the responsibility of deciding whether the chipset/modem is one that requires a restriction of the retransmission options.

If there are two levels, then I wonder whether the two different kinds of DLM reset that we see depend on whether the reset is done at the lower (nightly) level, or the upper (supervisor) level.

I could see a reset at the lower level being one that removes retransmission as a "solution", and replaces it with interleaving. I could see a reset at the higher level being one that takes away all "solutions", so DLM (at the lower level) only has the option of an "open profile" left available.

Now, some of the behaviour we've seen over the last year - especially new lines being put to the back of the (long) queue before retransmission is even considered - suggests there is very much a second process involved. Whereas the original DLM worked every night, on every line, in parallel (and still looks to), the new aspects seem to work slowly, over some lines, in a nationwide pool. Something is definitely running to a bigger overview.

If there is a second "something" running, then it makes sense that it makes decisions very independently of the other, nightly, process.
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2016, 01:33:50 PM »

It seems clear that a quick solution is to give the CPs (or the EU's) the ability to toggle g.fast off,

I think it is probably something like a year-long round-trip between adding requirements to the IT systems for Openreach, to them being developed, tested, released and available to Openreach CP's. I'm not sure that counts as quick...
 
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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2016, 01:38:10 PM »

I can only suggest that the problem is at the end user end with hardware which does not support G.INP

Retransmission is designed with the option of 4 different framing modes, and modems/chipsets are free to choose which layer to implement the retransmission function in.

It could well be that the problem is made visible with modems/chipsets that have chosen different (but still correct) ways to implement G.INP, only to find a bug in the cabinet that was not being tickled by other (more numerous) chipsets during testing.

Edit: Make sense, lad!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 02:08:27 PM by WWWombat »
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Dray

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2016, 11:00:14 PM »

I have just noticed that BT is rolling out firmware version 4.7.5.1.83.8.204.1.11 for the HH5A again. I wonder if this is to ensure that all connected HH5A's are updated before Openreach turn on G.INP on ECI cabinets again?
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2016, 09:57:43 AM »


I think that a DLM reset, of either variety, fundamentally changes the set of DLM configuration properties to something that either
a) turns G.INP off and turns interleaving off;     or
b) turns G.INP off, and turns interleaving on downstream.

I haven't figured out why there might be two different starting points, or why they might be chosen.

Makes much more sense when phrased coming from that angle.
I was viewing from a different side of the triangle : Open was the basic setting..  then the options were Interleave or G.INP.

Something, somewhere appears to be set so that the EU cant over-ride G.INP via their modems. 

On a similarish topic.

Note how those of us say with BCM chipset based modems can no longer fiddle with SNRm to over-ride any target SNRm, when we could with previous DLMs.   What surprised me the other day is that I saw Simon say that he could do this via his Fritz!box.   Thats the first time Ive seen anyone able to do so..  usually we have to resort to capping speed.
It gets even more interesting when he says on the PN forum as well as being able to set 4dB, 6dB, 8dB that his modem is cycling through different tone-sets.

Quote from: SIN 498
This involves supporting tone-sets A43 and A43C (as defined in G.994.1 Amendment 1).
The use of additional tone-sets (B43, B43c, V43) is not permitted as these may cause adverse interference to other DSL systems operating in the same cable binder.
snipped relevant bits or I'd be re-formatting too much pdf text

I'm beginning to understand just why MCT is needed. 
I think the ASUS also allowed something to be over-ridden that could be disadvantageous to neighbouring lines.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2016, 06:10:05 PM »

...  and yet another Fritz!box :(

link.
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP/Retransmission roll-out on ECI cabinets - UPDATE 30/04/2016
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2016, 06:47:15 PM »

just ban them. that fritz and the asus router/modem combo devices have been a nightmare really on FTTC.
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