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Author Topic: 3dB Target SNRm Live?  (Read 77245 times)

kitz

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2016, 07:20:52 PM »

A quick resync should do it.

You will get away with just the one.   Ive done 5/6 once when testing a router and DLM left me alone..  but IIRC your ISP may use a different profile.     1 or 2 will be perfectly fine though.
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NewtronStar

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2016, 09:03:53 PM »

It was a crosstalker thingy aargh
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William Grimsley

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2016, 09:06:05 PM »

It was a crosstalker thingy aargh

Damn, your back to 6 dB. Whaaat?
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NewtronStar

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2016, 09:32:52 PM »

It was a crosstalker thingy aargh

Damn, your back to 6 dB. Whaaat?

Ah well back to 33000 Kbps it won't hurt me from streaming 3 HD movies at the same time  :D
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William Grimsley

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2016, 09:33:28 PM »

Such a shame, naughty b*kat...
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lcl00

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2016, 10:29:50 PM »

I had a similar event happen to me a night recently (I think last Wednesday).  Around the same time in the evening my line dropped and came back up at around 61mbps (ordinarily around 53mbps)... once everyone else came online my SNR was 0.8dB - clearly unsustainable, but no errored seconds!

They must just be doing some sort of upgrade work on the cabinets and we happened to connect before the majority of the crosstalkers did. 

Kind of shows just how much of an effect crosstalk is actually having.  61mbps might have been after half of the users had connected, or I might just have been the first, I suppose it's impossible to know unless there's a power cut.  However, vectoring still looks like something we won't see! 

Currently my line is showing a SNRM of around 3dB, but that's just my own doing.  I have another VDSL line in here at the moment and it hits with about 3dB in crosstalk, so I make sure it isn't in sync when that one is negotiating with the DSLAM.
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burakkucat

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2016, 11:24:54 PM »

Such a shame, naughty b*kat...

Wasn't me!  :P  It was our leader, Kitz, who recommended performing a resynchronisation at the circuit's worst time for RFI.

Now that we know N*Star's circuit is not included in the 3 dB target SNRM trial, he could then perform another resynchronisation at around 1100 hours on Wednesday or Thursday and regain some DS & US speed.
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William Grimsley

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2016, 11:26:10 PM »

Such a shame, naughty b*kat...

Wasn't me!  :P  It was our leader, Kitz, who recommended performing a resynchronisation at the circuit's worst time for RFI.

Now that we know N*Star's circuit is not included in the 3 dB target SNRM trial, he could then perform another resynchronisation at around 1100 hours on Wednesday or Thursday and regain some DS & US speed.

Oops! You're both cats!  :lol:
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kitz

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2016, 01:27:18 AM »

If it was a cross-talker then why did the max attainable go up and stay up? 

Newtrons max attainable is the highest it has ever been, if it was an x-talker, then surely his max attainable would not have stayed so high once the disturber came back online?


Look at NS's stats over the past 240 days in the graph below. 
Note how when the max attainable goes up - then correspondingly the SNRM goes up.   That is typical behaviour from crosstalk.   
Yet on the 15th, when the max attainable went up.. the SNRM went down.   That is unusual behaviour.   Since when did less SNRm cause more attainable speed if it wasn't anything to do with the target SNRm or FEC overheads.  The pattern since the 15th was totally different.  ???
Generally speaking max attainable should mirror SNRm.   It didnt -  on the 15th SNRM went down and max attainable went up indicating something else was at play.


I'm also wondering about Ignition too now, who thought he may have had it..  then it vanished after a resync. Mind you, it would a bit of a rubbish trial if it got removed upon a resync.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 01:30:45 AM by kitz »
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kitz

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2016, 01:39:40 AM »

I had a similar event happen to me a night recently (I think last Wednesday).  Around the same time in the evening my line dropped and came back up at around 61mbps (ordinarily around 53mbps)... once everyone else came online my SNR was 0.8dB - clearly unsustainable, but no errored seconds!

Your line displayed the expected crosstalk behaviour, see on the graph below we can see the brief red dot where you sync'd with 6dB.   Look how at that time, correspondingly your max attainable went higher.  Then as you dropped down to 4dB, your max attainable also went down.

Newts didnt do that - his max attainable went up and stayed up at the record high, despite only having 3dB of snrm.   

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PS another example

Someone the other week suggested that Eric's line had 3db, yet when I looked at his stats at the time of resync, I could see when zooming in, that his line also dipped after a very brief spike and the max attainable corresponded with the lower snrm.   
Its why I said at the time that I thought erics was not 3dB and him more likely doing a quick resync before his disturber. 
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 01:49:04 AM by kitz »
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Black Sheep

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2016, 07:09:36 AM »

I may be wrong, and I haven't got the time just now ...... but I'm sure I've read that some of the 3dB trials would initially only be for a 24hr period ? Don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but would account for the sudden presence and loss of the 3dB profile ??
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WWWombat

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2016, 09:11:24 AM »

[I started writing this yesterday afternoon. It is written in the context of *not* having done the resync around 9pm yesterday; I'll cover that separately later]

I couldn't respond any further over the weekend, but it seems well worthwhile to have allowed some time for @NS' stats to accumulate. They are interesting.

Here's my analysis, ordered from cause, through direct effect, to indirect effect.

1. What Target?

The initial resync shows SNRM of 3dB for both upstream and downstream, suggesting that is the target.

2. Actual SNRM In Practice

Actual downstream SNRM rises from the starting point of 3dB to around 3.6dB later on Friday, but that kind of increase (0.6dB) seems to match the usual kind of improvement gained between 00:30 and mid-daytime - even before the resync.

Because @NS's SNRM cycles predictably each day, the speed achieved and the SNRM witnessed depends very much on the exact time of day that the resync happens.

We can see the "before" range was around 5dB-6.3dB, while the "after" range is now around 2.2dB-3.6dB. The difference turns out to be about 2.7dB, and has bought a speed improvement of 4.5mbps.

3. Raw FEC Rates

We see a marked increase in the FEC error rate - i.e. errors that were small enough they could be corrected.

This increase in FEC seems to occur very much in patterns, synchronised to the daily decline in SNRM: a wide spike from 4pm to 6am, with the worst being around 9pm. Notably, FECs seem to happen much more readily when SNRM declines below 3dB, even a little, while they stay relatively consistent when just above 3dB.

This might point out a useful rule-of-thumb: that we don't really want the line to drop below 3dB at any time; as @NS' line varies by around 1dB daily, this line might benefit from being on a 4dB target, so worst case never goes below 3dB.

4. G.INP Retransmission Usage

Errors that can't be handled by FEC get bumped into the retransmission mechanism.

In @NS' case, I think we can see a general increase in the "Retransmission TX" counts since the resync, but we don't see anything like the wide spike from 4pm to 6am that we see in the FECs ... suggesting that the FEC process has been very effective.

The other retransmission counts (Corr and Uncorr) tell us that the retransmission process is largely working - with just a few spikes in Uncorr.

5. CRC Errors

Errors that can't be handled by retransmission become CRC errors

The CRC graph doesn't show anything untoward has happened at all - a great result

6. Latency/Jitter

One outcome of additional retransmission would be the impact on latency: in particular, the increase in jitter.

I can't see a graph for @NS on this, so it is hard to tell whether there was any marked difference in outcome.

7. MTBE

The ultimate outcome is: How stable is the line? What is the impact to MTBE?

This gets shown to us in the ES and LEFTRS graphs, and the good news is that there seems to be virtually nothing changed about these.

I think there is an additional measure used by BT: FECS (an MTBE measure for FEC, in a similar way to ES being used for CRC); SIN 498 tells us that it is mandatory for the modem to be able to report this to the DSLAM. Unfortunately, there seem to be almost no modems that report this value. However, I'm sure we'd see a serious difference in this graph, if it were available to us.

8. Conclusion

@NS's line responded very well to a 3dB target, with the only exception being the spiked increase in FEC when actual SNRM values fell below 3dB.

The general increase in FEC was slightly visible in increased re-transmission rates, but the large spikes weren't replicated.

I can see that, for pure speed purposes, the line would work well enough at a 3dB target, but I can't help that a 4dB target would be best here.
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WWWombat

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2016, 09:21:52 AM »

If it was a cross-talker then why did the max attainable go up and stay up? 

Newtrons max attainable is the highest it has ever been, if it was an x-talker, then surely his max attainable would not have stayed so high once the disturber came back online?

I agree. It looked and felt like the proper response for a drop in the target SNRM.

For what it is worth, I'd have recommended the same action - though I'm really glad we left it running untouched for a few days first.
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WWWombat

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2016, 10:33:41 AM »

I may be wrong, and I haven't got the time just now ...... but I'm sure I've read that some of the 3dB trials would initially only be for a 24hr period ? Don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but would account for the sudden presence and loss of the 3dB profile ??

Changing SNRM target for a line certainly has the possibility of introducing uncontrolled instability on a line - an outcome no-one would want. So the trial could have disastrous outcomes, for some people at least.

How do you mitigate against this happening? I could very much understand a trial that worked for a limited time, or was a one-shot event.

[Slight Aside:
In old-style DLM, we have all seen the behaviour where INP value is changed and a resync is triggered for it to take effect. In new-style DLM, we see cases where a new INP value takes effect post-sync (say from 49 to 50), but the resync wasn't triggered by DLM itself: the change happens after a resync by the user.

So we've seen that DLM can change settings, but not bother with a resync just yet.]

The trial could make use of this capability: When ready, set an SNRM target of 3dB, and force a resync. Then, 24 hours later, restore the SNRM target to 6dB, but don't force a resync. The new target would then become active whenever the line re-synced - whether triggered by DLM, user, or fault.
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WWWombat

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Re: 3dB Target SNRm Live?
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2016, 11:12:36 AM »

I'm assuming a margin change is the cause of the increase. The timing suggests it was a configuration change of some description and certainly not been at 67Mb for about 300 other subscribers on the node. Not monitoring the modem for right now so no idea about the exact margin.

It was not a margin change it appears.

I suspect planned work was being carried out on the DSLAM and it was reloaded. The outage was somewhat long for a resync.

The increased sync would've been due to my modem coming online before some of my many disturbers (~287 of them on one DSLAM, ~200-240 on the other).

I restarted my modem earlier and not only was there no 6dB profile, DLM responded to the restart by switching off G.inp and falling back to default 8ms delay downstream interleaved profile.

No matter. Will leave it be and let it do its thing.

I'm wondering about this, given that @NS' line removed the 3dB margin after a resync.

In your case, it certainly could be an "early sync" after maintenance, leading to a combination of a high speed/low (actual) margin, but the telling component will have been the attainable speed. Do you know what that was?

That low (actual) margin could then have resulted in an increased error rate, causing the DLM impact you saw - a switch to old-style interleaving+FEC with 8ms latency. The only thing missing from this conjecture is the automatic resync as a consequence of DLM actions - whereas you resync'ed manually, right?

Another explanation could be that DLM reset itself, back to the new-style default (no G.INP, and low interleaving downstream). Again, we're missing the automatic resync.

I then wonder if this is an "artifact" of the way BT were going about this trial - in line with @BlackSheep's post, and my conjecture above. Perhaps you *were* put onto a 3dB target for a while, but DLM left a "fallback configuration" that was equivalent to a DLM reset, just in case your line couldn't cope.

Then, when you manually resync'ed, your line fell back to this "couldn't cope" configuration.

How long was it between the automatic resync, and the subsequent manual one you performed?
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