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Author Topic: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?  (Read 16493 times)

sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2016, 09:25:11 PM »

That will be the target SNRM which has been set to 9 dB.
Yes, you're correct.  :-[
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2016, 10:35:24 PM »

I have your SNRM, CRC/min, FEC/min and ES/hour plots configured to view via MDWS.

In the immediate past 24 hours I see that there have been five resynchronisation events logged. The one at 1416 hours was due to your ISP/CP resetting the target SNRM. The most recent event at 2156 hours has resulted in a 1 dB increase in the US SNRM and no change to the DS SNRM.

Your circuit is behaving in a most peculiar fashion and, to be perfectly honest, I currently have no idea what is occurring.  ???

It is unfortunate that your modem/router only provides a subset of the full data that can be viewed via MDWS.
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konrado5

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2016, 11:38:25 PM »

I think it is crosstalk issue, because I don't see any narrow dips on QLN. Single disabled tones are related to DSLAM settings because QLN doesn't show any dips on these toens and Hlog show nothing (no signal).
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2016, 11:51:37 PM »

Hi B*Cat.

I can explain two of the resynchs around this time last night as these were done by myself - the first one at around a quarter to midnight was fitting in a BT80A RF3 filter between the DSL wall socket & the DSL port on the TG582n, but it made no difference to any visible stats. The next resync at around 1:05am (by this time the non-continuous interference went to sleep for the night) was removing the BT80a RF3 and replacing it with the Wireless Waffle blog suggestion for the low-pass filter & common-mode choke, evidence that this wasn't doing the trick came at 12:46pm when the SNR fell again to 4db.

However the resync that took place at just before 10pm this evening wasn't done by me.

At this point I decided to go outdoors with a MW radio on 612kHz (and a few kilohertz either side) to see if I could track the source of interference if it was nearby me - the only time this was noticed was when I held the radio next to the plastic ducting on the telegraph pole that takes my line underground to my house and could simply be put down to proximity, nothing really out of the ordinary - there did seem to be a very faint rise in background noise when going between the houses that are fed overhead rather than underground, but that again IMO could be just residual noise from DSL along the lines and/or faint electrical noise. Certainly I've seen far worse destructive interference to MW & LW radio signals from EMI particularly about 0.5 miles away where even the stronger signals get lost into mush or are heavily affected. Among the houses where the phone lines are fed underground to the premises' there was no sign of raised noise levels at all.

My theory at the moment is that the interference from a device (probably a television or set-top box or their respective power supplies) is managing to couple its way into the telephone line on the offending premises which is feeding back into the junction box on the telegraph pole or possibly beyond which in turn is degrading the noise levels on lines in close proximity to it.

What I'll try and do within the next 24 hours is to get the HG612 I have set up properly where if I can't use it in router mode I'll try bridge mode so I can keep it on the line to enable more detailed stats to be present.
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2016, 12:09:41 AM »

Thank you for that explanation.  :)

Your postulation, as to a defective device radiating spurious RF noise, which then couples into its local telephone pair and, eventually, your own circuit, is certainly a possibility. Also, as Konrado5 has suggested, the possibility of cross-talk should also be considered.

The details on how to use an Huawei HG612 as a two port modem/router is available in the Kitz Wiki. It was some years ago, when I last used one in that fashion. (It is possible to configure a HG612 to operate, in ADSL mode, as either a modem/router or as a pure bridge.)

Once you have finished making adjustments to the circuit, I would then like to see how it behaves over a complete uninterrupted 24 hours period.
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2016, 03:20:02 AM »

HG612 now all set up and running, feeding to MDWS. Stats from the past three hours were me just fiddling around a bit. Can't promise that I'll have it up for the next 24 hours straight as some other work might lead to having plugs switched off/exchanged, but I'll keep it in mind.  :angel:
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2016, 06:44:31 PM »

Thank you.  :)

We now have the full set of ADSL2+ circuit graphs to consider and I'm still scratching my head!  :-\
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2016, 02:55:30 PM »

I had the connection down just after 10am today for a few minutes as I was changing a few wires including moving the WAP upstairs (linked by Cat5e cable from HG612) and adding a 10/100 8 port TP-Link hub for the entertainment element of the living room.

Regardless of anything else, would it be safe to say I have a REIN problem? Yesterday seen the target SNRM margin of 9db go from an ongoing SNR of 9.4-9.6db go right down to 0.9-1.0db while the non-continuous interference was present - despite the poor SNR level, the HG612 held on without too much apparent difficulty - only an Android tablet game reported "slow connection" a couple of times and that was it.

Now noticeable is the attainable speed levels on the downstream - without the non-continuous interference at the ~9db SNR level it's hitting 11.1 to 11.4Mbps, but when the interference hits to take the SNR down to ~1db the attainable speed drops down to about 7.0-7.1Mbps, i.e. a drop of more than a third & 4Mbps.  :no: OTOH Upstream attainable speed only changes a few kilobits here and there.

I suspect that regardless of any continuous noise (from the likes of crosstalk etc.) from looking at the noise floor of the QLN graphs, getting this non-continuous interference eliminated would allow me to sync with a lower target SNRM and bring my downstream speed to a more expected level.  :cool:
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2016, 04:55:05 PM »

Yes, I agree with your conclusion.

On checking the status of your circuit (at 1644 hours) I see that the interferer has just become active, once again, at 1641 hours.

The drops in SNRM are mirrored by massive increases in FECs. However the number of CRC are trivial (one, one and thirteen, i.e. fifteen over the last 24 hour period) as are the number of Errored Seconds (four recorded, one each in four separate hours over the last 24 hour period).
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2016, 08:20:08 PM »

The irony is that the amount of FEC corrections at present is now significantly lower than when the target SNRM was set at 12db.

Looking at the times on Thursday 7th & Saturday 9th before the 9db target SNRM was set, the downstream FEC figures were hitting over half a million. After the change however at worst this figure is now at four figures and since the return of the interference this afternoon, it's been no higher than 620 a minute.

On early Saturday afternoon before I got my ISP to change the target SNRM, I managed to manually change the target SNRM through DSLstats to 6db just as a test and I was able to get a downstream attainable data rate of over 13Mbps, which starts looking a lot better for the line attenuation rate.

Now to look at how to get this REIN sorted. The technical person at the Co-op phone & broadband I spoke to sounded quite knowledgeable and friendly to talk to but given the trouble tracking the source of REIN in the first place I'm not sure wherever it would be even worth my while chasing it up on to Openreach and risk getting hit with a callout fee. What I'll probably do some day this week is to switch off all electric in my home and use the 2wire HGV2700v powered via a USB portable battery as the modem & router connected at the master socket and monitor the stats on the laptop from around 4pm until the interference becomes present - with the mains electric killed during that time that should absolutely rule out anything on my premises.  :angel:

Thanks to yourself B*cat and also to konrado5 for your knowledge and time to help me understand the problem I'm having better. than before  :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »

I would suggest that you try a different approach.

We can see, quite clearly, when the interferer is present and absent. So when the interference is absent, I would then use a suitable radio to go all over your own property and see what is normal. Switching power supplies, compact fluorescent lights, TFT displays, etc, all radiate some RF. So see what is normal. In particular see what can be heard adjacent to the cable that connects the modem to the filter, adjacent to the telephone line, etc.

Then wait until the interference re-appears. Quickly re-check around your property, remembering what you experienced when the interferer was absent. If you can detect the interference by the the modem - filter link cable, check adjacent to the incoming telephone line.

Analyse the above and if, as you have previously suggested, it might be something that is radiating into a telephone line elsewhere and then coupling into your telephone line in the vicinity of the DP. Think old television, think old Sky box . . .

What about your immediate environment? Are you miles away from anyone else, a sheep farm halfway up that hill over there? Is there a local enthusiast of arc-welding who repairs metal objects in the barn, down the lane? Are you so situated that there is a good line of sight between you and Grimbledon Down? Is there an RAF base, currently used by the USAF, nearby? An experimental radar installation? A 132 kV to 11 kV substation?

Accurate notes of your observations, coupled with your knowledge of your topography, is likely to be the only way that leads to an eventual successful conclusion.
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2016, 07:50:51 AM »

Hi B*cat. I'll try what you're suggesting within the next few days. One thing that has became clear is that although the interference is sort of predictable in terms of what times they appear on for the day of the week, it can't be timed to the exact minute on a predictable basis.

I'm 99% certain that the problem is not caused by something in my own premises. I occasionally indulge in AM radio DXing with indoor loops and I know that raised background noise levels are the bane of this hobby. There are two devices that I have which give off wideband hash interference, one is a SMPS that came with an Android "TV Box" and another is an old-ish Openbox S11 satellite receiver whose power supply looks dodgy anyway - I don't really use the former (I only need to get it set up again before giving it back to my brother) while the latter I only use now for helping align satellite dishes as I've now got a satellite receiver whose power supply behaves itself. It probably goes without saying, but in my experience a lot of cheap Chinese electronics & power supplies are poor at EMI suppression, if not outright dodgy at times.

When I was outside last Saturday when the noise was present on the line, I did have a portable radio which when I went to the telegraph pole my line is on where I held the radio next to a drop line that was in a duct before it goes underground - on that occasion the noise became stronger and the signal meter on the radio was registering it - of course that can just be noise from the ADSL service itself so I'll need to check between the noise being present and not being there to see a change I guess.

At the master socket I have a filter faceplace that I bought around four years ago - I think it was made by ADSL nation, but it's the same fascia as the filter on the right of the image below. I originally bought it when I was living in a flat and had a ADSL2+ Sky LLU, where it gave nearly a 1Mb downstream improvement over the filter supplied with the Sagem F@st2504n. Between the filter and the modem is a length of Cat5e cable - overkill perhaps, but it was readily available at the time. Blue twisted pair is used for POTS and green twisted pair for xDSL on the IDC connectors on the filter, which go to respective BT431 & RJ45 sockets. From the RJ45 socket is a short (30cm) CW1308 lead with RJ45 and RJ11 plugs on each end.



My local environment is in a small housing estate in a village in the rural Co. Tyrone countryside. My home doesn't have a farm attached to it(!) though there is a field less than 100 metres away where some newborn lambs and ewes are prancing around at present. :angel: As I mentioned previously, there is a primary school just behind my back garden - though the time patterns of the interference would suggest that the offending interference is unlikely to come from there. There is a woodworks shop about 200 metres down the hill from myself, but again the timing of the interference would suggest it isn't from there. I can't think of anyone in the near vicinity that might use something like a welding torch. There isn't an electric substation right next to me, but it might be worth finding out where the nearest one is, I probably just haven't noticed it.

There are no armed forces camps in the local area (the nearest ones are about 35 miles away each, one a small RAF camp and another an Irish Army camp in Co. Donegal), the nearest radar installation - if it is currently in use - would be at an airport (St. Angelo) about 13 miles away. There are no broadcast transmitters in the local area, though I can see the Brougher Mountain TV & Radio transmitting station from an upstairs window. There is a 2G Vodafone mast approx 350 metres away in a straight line - the next nearest is a Vodafone 3G/4G & O2 2G/3G/4G mast at roughly 900 metres.

I'll report back in due course. :police:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 07:53:02 AM by sheepfarmer »
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burakkucat

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2016, 06:22:52 PM »

All read and understood. I'm sure we all will be interested in any discoveries that you make.  :)

Whatever the source of the interference, it is clearly something that is turned on and off . . .  :-\
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2016, 03:52:26 PM »

Haven't been able to run a thorough test yet, but one thing I have noticed is that if I fall back to ADSL1 or ADSL2 mode (i.e. not ADSL2+) the corresponding SNR drop is approx. 6db as opposed to 8-8.5db for ADSL2+

Also the interference wasn't present yesterday for much of the afternoon despite it being there the previous Saturdays - presumably the sunny weather at the time provided a good excuse for the offending item not to be on.

If I was to take a guess at the problem, I'm going to go for a domestic appliance in either a TV or a dodgy set-top box. But again I'll need to do my own investigating first.
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sheepfarmer

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Re: Poor ADSL2+ speed rates?
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2016, 11:44:45 AM »

OK, this took a little longer than planned but I'm back to looking at the interference source.

I previously said that I as 99% certain that the source of interference was not in my house. I'm now raising that to 99.9% - I've just tested starting from switching everything electrical off in the house including the fridge, central heating & smoke alarms with only the HG612 router being powered (the laptop to monitor the stats being on its battery). The modem suddenly went gaga when I was switching off at the switch board that sent CRC rates briefly skyrocketing, it resynchronised on ADSL1 only for whatever reason. A further manual resync brought it back to ADSL2+.

After a couple of minutes of allowing the modem to settle, I started switching things back on one-by-one and observed the SNR margin when these devices were powered back on. The variation of SNR margin from the modem being the only electric powered device to everything that was powered back on previously was only 0.3db for upstream and 0.1db for downstream.

I'm heading away this afternoon so I'll leave the laptop (now plugged in) running to feed MDWS and when I come back, the interference should be there. I'll repeat the process then that I've done this morning switching devices off and bringing them back on - should it also give a negligible variation of SNR margin, then my confidence that the REIN interference is not coming from my home will be 99.99%.
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