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Author Topic: IP profile and sync speed.  (Read 16347 times)

burakkucat

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2016, 11:16:32 PM »

Can you humour me briefly, and confirm exactly how the FTTC IP profile calculation is formulated? What is it that makes 96.8% an appropriate adjustment?

I can only say that it is based entirely upon empirical observations made by one with a very sharp beak.

Quote
The recent mentions of MTU is making me think...

If you could help to expand the collective knowledge by means of erudite thought experiments and observations, it would be greatly appreciated.
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WWWombat

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2016, 12:32:12 AM »

Can you humour me briefly, and confirm exactly how the FTTC IP profile calculation is formulated? What is it that makes 96.8% an appropriate adjustment?

I can only say that it is based entirely upon empirical observations made by one with a very sharp beak.

I was hoping someone had worked backwards from the observations to the cause...

I assume the 3.2% comes from around 48 bytes out of around 1500 bytes. Something related to the MTU, or biggest MTU anyway...

Quote
The recent mentions of MTU is making me think...

If you could help to expand the collective knowledge by means of erudite thought experiments and observations, it would be greatly appreciated.

The line of thinking hasn't coalesced into full theory, but it goes like this...
- IP profile ratio used to be static. Same percentage for all. All modems, all cabinets. Unvarying.
- With G.INP activation, the ratio isn't just different, but seems to be variable. Sometimes in extremis.
- Right now we don't understand what variation can happen, but perhaps that isn't the first step to take. Perhaps we should just accept that the system can now vary.
- Perhaps the variation isn't caused by G.INP directly.
- Perhaps the activation of G.INP also activates a new DLM version, in which the IP profile calculation is made dynamic.
- In which case, we can open up consideration of @ns's problem beyond the raw IP profile ratio and framing parameters.

If that is a plausible pathway, then perhaps the old IP profile calculation was based on static considerations: worst MTU, and worst overheads. But the new dynamic calculation can happen from actual MTU discovery, and actual overheads.

Then my next question to @ns would be: What's your MTU?

That's the thought experiment. Observations next...
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ejs

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2016, 04:55:35 AM »

I don't think MTU has anything to do with the IP profile. The only reason I asked for the MTU was to factor in the TCP and IP layer overheads for going from a speedtest result to a number comparable to the IP profile figure.

I don't even think that the framing parameters should affect the IP profile percentage. The framing parameters are already taken into account when the modem calculates the net data rate (the "sync speed"). G.INP maybe has something to do with whether the modem reports the sum total speed of bearer 0 plus bearer 1, or only bearer 0.
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NewtronStar

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2016, 12:21:15 PM »

Then my next question to @ns would be: What's your MTU?
That's the thought experiment. Observations next...

The MTU is set at 1492 on the modem and 1492 on the pc.

Was thinking about my variable attainable sync rate as you can see on MDWS it climbs and then dips every 24 hours all year round, could the lowest point on the attainable sync be used as the minimal sync rate.

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WWWombat

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2016, 12:32:30 PM »

@ejs
As I said, it is a thought experiment that hasn't reached a conclusion yet. But I can't find an answer within the expected boundaries, so I'm widening my thinking beyond what I expect to happen. Just to see if it provides any other insights... I understand why you asked about the MTU, but the mere act of you asking is what triggered this train of thought.

I experimented with changing my MTU in the router, and it didn't change the IP Profile reported by the BTW speedtester. Strike 1, but I'll try again later when the line isn't being used for work. DLM fears make experimentation slow here (take note, Mr Grimsley!)

However, this morning I was reading SIN 498, which had this to say (amongst lots of other stuff):

Quote
As a result of these overheads, the actual achievable throughput in bits per second is
dependent on the reported VDSL2 rate and frame size of the data being transmitted.

with an example:
Quote
For example, if the reported downstream VDSL2 data rate is 40,000 kbit/s and the IP
packet size is 1500 bytes (i.e. Ethernet frame size at End User LAN is 1514 bytes) the
maximum throughput achievable is actually 39,178 kbit/s (when measured at the EU
LAN i.e. no VLAN header, but including Ethernet header). Alternatively, if the IP
packet size is 64 bytes the maximum throughput achievable is further reduced to 35,721
kbit/s. This overhead is particularly important to consider in respect to the downstream
shaper setting on the CP’s BRAS.

What they call "IP Packet Size" sounds awfully similar to the MTU to me.

There's a lot in there for me to read related to tagging, which may affect throughput rates too - and they draw a reference to the framing used for PTM mode, which I haven't yet found a good reference for.

Then I was looking in the BTW FTTC Handbook (issue 12 is the most recent I've got; I'd love a newer one), which broke down throughput vs frame size even further, and has given me some ideas for further MTU experiments. I've attached a snip of the table.

Even those throughput figures aren't the final "IP-level" ones we need, as they probably include the encapsulation headers for PPP and PPPoE, at the very least. The text alludes to some form of traffic management - which might be as simple as some tags being added for QoS - but I need to figure that out too.

I think I need to read more of the two documents ... and not skip so much of the bits I don't understand  :-[

Right now, I think that the packet size is important. You used MTU to figure out the TCP and IP overhead that applies above the application 'goodput', but I think it works in the other direction with some of the tagging being added by Openreach/BTW/ISP too.
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burakkucat

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2016, 04:58:50 PM »

Then I was looking in the BTW FTTC Handbook (issue 12 is the most recent I've got; I'd love a newer one),  . . .

Issue 12, dated 16 September 2014, is also the most recent version that I possess.
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NewtronStar

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2016, 08:02:17 PM »

The other thing I note is this figure for Bearer 1

D:      1      0

Most of the other lines Ive seen have interleaved depth of say 3 for the downstream DTU.   

Had a look around and find that users on a 80/20 service with a sync of 70 Mbps will see a depth of 3 for the downstream DTU.

Those on the 40/10 service with a sync of 25-38 Mbps has a depth of 1 for the DTU.
you can also see the same on tbailey2 Bearer 1.

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tbailey2

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2016, 08:31:25 PM »

Those on the 40/10 service with a sync of 25-38 Mbps has a depth of 1 for the DTU.
you can also see the same on tbailey2 Bearer 1.
I'm on 80/20.... started life at 56/15, now 38.5/4.6
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NewtronStar

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2016, 08:43:06 PM »

I'm on 80/20.... started life at 56/15, now 38.5/4.6

Crikey you would have thought your line was on the 40/10 profile not 80/20 with those stats.

Anyway back to the Bearer 1 DS depth just by looking through some xdslcmd info --stats I can see depth 1 for 40 Mbps and 3 for 80 Mbps users.
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Chrysalis

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2016, 09:43:24 PM »

to show how variable speedtesters are, with flash vs html5, buffer sizes etc. I can report my tbb html5 tester result is 68.91mbit/sec.  Same sync speed.
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NewtronStar

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Re: IP profile and sync speed.
« Reply #85 on: April 23, 2016, 07:46:52 PM »

I used speed of me test it shows max download of 32Mbps and my sync is 33400 something I am not used to this speedtester could someone give me advice.

http://speedof.me/show.php?img=160423165936-8875.png
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