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Author Topic: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode  (Read 15618 times)

WWWombat

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2016, 08:51:24 AM »

Is it the wires into the DP from the exchange side that are saturated? Or the wires in from the premises side? Or the number of available connection points within the DP?

I assume you mean the first one.
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loonylion

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 11:54:28 AM »

I wonder if this is similar to how my cochlear implant was able to give me 200 distinct frequencies despite only having 22 electrodes. They were referred to as virtual frequencies.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 12:04:50 PM »

Is it the wires into the DP from the exchange side that are saturated? Or the wires in from the premises side? Or the number of available connection points within the DP?

I assume you mean the first one.

Your assumption is 100% correct, sir.  :) :)

We can quite easily add further cable from 'DP to premises', the shortfall (should bonding become common practice ?) is from the Cab to the DP (D-side pairs) . There is usually ample spare pairs from the Exchange to the Cab (E-side pairs). Of course, there are always the odd Cab that has gone 'Bust' (Run out of pairs).  :)
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Ronski

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 01:27:49 PM »

So if installing at the DP  then it shouldn't be a problem, perhaps that's the way to go in the future, obviously won't be suitable in all cases.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2016, 02:26:08 PM »

So if installing at the DP  then it shouldn't be a problem, perhaps that's the way to go in the future, obviously won't be suitable in all cases.

Pardon my ignorance, Ron ...... I'm not sure what you mean there, bud ??
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S.Stephenson

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2016, 03:44:05 PM »

So if installing at the DP  then it shouldn't be a problem, perhaps that's the way to go in the future, obviously won't be suitable in all cases.

Pardon my ignorance, Ron ...... I'm not sure what you mean there, bud ??
I'm pretty sure he means that if the node is at the end of the drop wire to the house on the DP then there is plenty of copper pairs to be had for bonding, as the drop wires should mostly have 2 pairs.

If they mean running more copper to the DP from the cab, then I'm pretty sure it'd just be cheaper to run Fiber at that point.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 03:46:42 PM by S.Stephenson »
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Ronski

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2016, 03:48:49 PM »

S.Stephenson beat me to it.

Well most properties have at least two pairs from the DP, so if the box of tricks was located at the DP then it shouldn't be a problem using two bonded lines to do phantom mode. But of course with the diversity in the network this may not always be practical,  for example if there is only a few lines at the DP or where the property is already using the two pairs for two seperate lines.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2016, 03:55:39 PM »

I see …… that's what I've been saying all along though, there would not be enough capacity AT the DP from the Cab, in the vast majority of cases. Fibre is cheaper to put in the ground than Copper …….. ergo IMHO this type of technology will not be a mainstream delivery method ? It may have it's part to play in some circumstances though ?  :)

PS …… most drop-wires that have been erected in the last couple of years or so are now single pair, as opposed to dual pair. Just for info purposes.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2016, 03:59:46 PM »

S.Stephenson beat me to it.

Well most properties have at least two pairs from the DP, so if the box of tricks was located at the DP then it shouldn't be a problem using two bonded lines to do phantom mode. But of course with the diversity in the network this may not always be practical,  for example if there is only a few lines at the DP or where the property is already using the two pairs for two seperate lines.

I'm thinking that if they ever put the node that close then FTTP couldn't really cost more than getting a new drop wire(£129) so I don't see why they'd pair bond at that point.

I honestly don't see the point of XG.Fast surely if someone wants the speeds offered by the spec then they'd pay a few hundred for FTTP.
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Ronski

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2016, 05:31:22 PM »

I see …… that's what I've been saying all along though, there would not be enough capacity AT the DP from the Cab, in the vast majority of cases. Fibre is cheaper to put in the ground than Copper …….. ergo IMHO this type of technology will not be a mainstream delivery method ? It may have it's part to play in some circumstances though ?  :)

But what I was getting at was from DP to EU, the cab to DP plays no part in the broadband side of things if using remote nodes at the DP  ;)

Quote
PS …… most drop-wires that have been erected in the last couple of years or so are now single pair, as opposed to dual pair. Just for info purposes.

Well that would certainly cause a complication, on a side note are all new underground installs ducted?
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gt94sss2

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2016, 05:45:53 PM »

I'm thinking that if they ever put the node that close then FTTP couldn't really cost more than getting a new drop wire(£129) so I don't see why they'd pair bond at that point.

I honestly don't see the point of XG.Fast surely if someone wants the speeds offered by the spec then they'd pay a few hundred for FTTP.

I can see the point of XG.Fast and its precisely that customers wouldn't pay more for FTTP if the same service/speed was available for cheaper via XG.Fast - customers are very price sensitive.

Also while replacing a single drop-wire might not be cost that much per se, logistically it would be a nightmare having to replace millions of them - when it would be so much cheaper for Openreach to install equipment at the DP and bond existing copper pairs.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2016, 06:05:33 PM »

They wouldn't have to replace millions of drop wires all at once, I was thinking it would be more based on demand, assuming that 99% of people would be satisfied with G.Fast speeds in 2020.

So at first the small percentage of people who want FTTP speeds will order it as it becomes available and then demand will rise over time until it hits the point where for BT retirement of copper make sense.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 06:21:42 PM by S.Stephenson »
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Ronski

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2016, 06:52:36 PM »

On our estate all phone lines are buried without ducting, I'm not even sure that there is ducting between the chambers, but there may be. Installing FTTP would be expensive as it would require digging up the whole estate and right up to peoples houses. A lot of people will not want their gardens and driveways digging up, it wouldn't bother me as I ran in a hopefully suitable conduit when I had our extension built and they only need to go across grass:-)

However if G.Fast, XG.Fast or this Phantom system was used they'd only have to install fibre to the DP/chambers and then use 1 or 2 of the existing lines to each house, I have a single buried armoured cable (I know this because it was uncovered when the extension was built) with two pairs in it, and my DP chamber is just across the road about 30 meters away.

If the nodes were close enough I'd expect the speeds available would satisfy the majority well into the next decade, with the others paying for much cheaper than today (if it were available) FTTPod because the fibre runs much closer.

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WWWombat

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2016, 08:43:13 PM »

A lot of people will not want their gardens and driveways digging up

Alcatel-Lucent regularly put a quote about this in most of their presentations on vectoring and G.Fast: "30% of FTTH subscribers change their minds when the engineer asks where he can drill holes in the wall for the fiber."

eg
http://uppersideconferences.net/g-fast-summit2014/pres-gfast2014/day_0/day_0_1_jochen_maes.pdf

I have no idea how true this is, or where they get the stats from, but I can imagine a higher backlash if gardens had to be dug.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Innovations in Broadband Access: Phantom Mode
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2016, 08:53:27 PM »

I see …… that's what I've been saying all along though, there would not be enough capacity AT the DP from the Cab, in the vast majority of cases. Fibre is cheaper to put in the ground than Copper …….. ergo IMHO this type of technology will not be a mainstream delivery method ? It may have it's part to play in some circumstances though ?  :)

But what I was getting at was from DP to EU, the cab to DP plays no part in the broadband side of things if using remote nodes at the DP  ;)

Quote
PS …… most drop-wires that have been erected in the last couple of years or so are now single pair, as opposed to dual pair. Just for info purposes.

Well that would certainly cause a complication, on a side note are all new underground installs ducted?

Ah right, I think I've got this all wrong. I thought that the two pairs to be bonded were required all the way from the Cab, through to the premises ?? I'm not well-versed in this phantom-thingy at all ........ are you saying only one pair is needed from the Cab to the remote unit sited at the DP, and then two pairs required from there Ron ??

If this is correct, I still can't see any financial gain to be made for the masses using this method, when its competitor G.Fast finally rolls out ??
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