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Author Topic: News from across the pond.  (Read 10435 times)

Weaver

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2016, 06:06:29 PM »

> It should be a law that every new house has full FTTP provided, and that no new copper local loop is allowed to be built.

@Dave2150 - good idea
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 06:08:38 PM by Weaver »
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Ronski

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2016, 06:14:36 PM »

Fantastic idea that, but back in the real world who's going to pay for it, oh hang that will us the bill payers.
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gt94sss2

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2016, 07:42:16 PM »

I don't think even BT know how much aluminium is in the local loop, there is no data available to show the exact number of lines.

But its possible to guesstimate as has been done earlier in this thread and its likely to be a small %.

Quote
FTTH is simply the wisest choice for the future. Significantly more reliable, significantly faster, easily upgradable compared to G.fast (by switching the terminating equipment) and not subject to distance, the weather, or RF interference.

And significantly more expensive and much much slower to deploy..

Quote
There is a reason FTTP is being rolled out to a large % of the population in many countries instead of G.fast.

Of course BT prefer G.Fast - simply because they get to re-use their rusty old local loop, which is a major asset to them.

As do a number of other telcos - I think you will find that FTTP is not being deployed as widely as you seem to think [and keep stating] overseas on a commercial basis. Most of what there is was planned well before alternatives such as G.Fast came to light.. and a fair bit will be things like FTTB due to population density which isn't really FTTP (depending on how you define it)

In Germany for instance, Deutsche Telekom largely decided to abandon its FTTP plans in 2012 and go for vectored DSL instead. I think now, they may even have scalled back their plans for G.Fast and are looking at VPlus instead

Even BT wanted to fibre up the country in the 1980/90s as at that point it was the logical option for them - now the business case won't be as strong partly as the alternatives are better.

In the UK, still to this day, a new housing estate gets wired up with copper telephone cables as it's broadband access method of choice. Only if a developer is wealthy enough to jump through hoops does it stand a chance of getting a FTTH development. Completely pathetic in 2016.

It should be a law that every new house has full FTTP provided, and that no new copper local loop is allowed to be built.

The issue with new housing estates is not really down to Openreach even though they seem to be the ones largely expected to fix it. The problem is due to:

a) councils not insisting on decent connectivity as a condition of approving planning permission;
b) not enough purchasers not demanding it from developers when moving in;
c) developers not under any pressure from a) or b) to provide it nor requesting it from Openreach when planning their build (or they just don't tell Openreach/Virgin Media about their development at all until its virtually complete)

I would like to see more a) and b) - then c) would happen naturally..
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Dave2150

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2016, 07:59:16 PM »

Fantastic idea that, but back in the real world who's going to pay for it, oh hang that will us the bill payers.

Of course, the government, tax payers. It's a service that a great deal of people would be very happy paying for. Of course the older generation wouldn't be happy, as many of them have either no use for it, or just use the internet for casual web browsing.
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c6em

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2016, 08:26:44 PM »

Well have I got news for you:
The reality is that most people really do not give a toss about broadband once they have got a few Mbps out of their ADSL supply
They are far too busy in their lives with sorting out children, dodgy cars, leaking gutters, elderly relatives in need of care, work issues... and the rest.
Upgrade to FTTP - sorry not interested really - even when presented with it at their doorstep.

I have a FTTP line here from Gigaclear
I was on the local committee trying to get it installed in the village.
They work on the basis that if they get 30% of the village/area under consideration by them to commit and sign up then they will install the brand new FTTP network to EACH house in the village.
If they don't get the 30% then they abandon it and go elsewhere.

So:
You can get the first 10% on day 1.
The next 10% can be got with some persuading, open days, newsletters, circulars etc.
However the final 10% to get to 30% total takes forever and requires a great deal of persuading. - you can be looking at 8 months to 1 year to do it.

......and even then that still leaves the other 70% who don't give a rats ass about FTTP, are certainly not going to be paying £40+ pm for it and are quite happy with a few Mbps per second on ADSL.

I should also mention the disruption caused by putting in FTTP in terms of wrecked verges cuts across tarmac roads where water will get in at the join and potholes will now form and the rest which REALLY gets people's backs up - even the supporting ones.

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gt94sss2

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2016, 08:27:53 PM »

Of course, the government, tax payers. It's a service that a great deal of people would be very happy paying for. Of course the older generation wouldn't be happy, as many of them have either no use for it, or just use the internet for casual web browsing.

Not just the older generation - probably the vast majority of the population would not be happy given other public spending commitments and the deficit.

In the same way the public objected to the idea of paying a 50p/telephone line tax under the last Labour Government

In the real world - have you noticed the number of customers who stick to the lowest speed packages on cable or FTTC (if they bother to upgrade at all once FTTC/P is available)?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 08:30:11 PM by gt94sss2 »
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Dave2150

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2016, 08:37:41 PM »

Of course, the government, tax payers. It's a service that a great deal of people would be very happy paying for. Of course the older generation wouldn't be happy, as many of them have either no use for it, or just use the internet for casual web browsing.

Not just the older generation - probably the vast majority of the population would not be happy given other public spending commitments and the deficit.

In the same way the public objected to the idea of paying a 50p/telephone line tax under the last Labour Government

In the real world - have you noticed the number of customers who stick to the lowest speed packages on cable or FTTC (if they bother to upgrade at all once FTTC/P is available)?

For many, the cheaper VDSL2 package from BT/other ISP's makes the most sense, since their lines are too long to get the 80mbit sync anyway. Why pay for something you won't receive?  The average FTTC sync speed is nowhere near the 80mbit maximum.

As the years go by, the younger generation will take over and hopefully we'll be able to catch up with other European countries FTTP coverage, though it will be an uphill battle by then.
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gt94sss2

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2016, 08:54:07 PM »

For many, the cheaper VDSL2 package from BT/other ISP's makes the most sense, since their lines are too long to get the 80mbit sync anyway. Why pay for something you won't receive?  The average FTTC sync speed is nowhere near the 80mbit maximum.

Even at the 40MB speeds - many choose 40/2 rather than 40/10 even though their lines would support it.

From tomorrow, when 55/10 becomes more available - and under the average sync speed available for FTTC watch how many or few change to it voluntarily.

However, you still haven't addressed why so many don't upgrade to FTTC at all or the case of VM where the distance is irrelevant and most of their customers also opt for the slowest cable speed tiers available.

UK consumers are very price sensitive and not enough are willing to pay for higher speeds.
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Ronski

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2016, 09:03:17 PM »

Dave you seem to have a lot to learn, both about business and about what people really want, yes the few want FTTP and are willing to pay but the majority couldn't care less. I would love FTTP, but I'm not willing to pay, I realise the time scale it would take and the cost to roll it out to every one in the short term is too much. If I had the choice between what I have now, which is 48/8 or paying double for 80/20 then hand on heart I'd choose what I have now as I have no need for more speed at the moment

Somebody I know at work is paying through the nose for ADSL Max, he didn't even know he could get faster speeds on ADSL 2+ it seems his ISP never upgraded him when it became available. Turns out he could even have 80/20 he's that close to his cabinet, I told him weeks ago, may be even months ago and he still hasn't changed over.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2016, 09:19:41 PM »

Is the long term plan of BT along the lines of, getting everybody to move up one tier at a time?

So current ADSL customers move to FTTC, as FTTC prices move towards the price of ADSL.

Then retire ADSL, after covering non G.FAST areas with FTTrN with VDSL2.

FTTC customers who want G.FAST speed go to G.FAST.

And if you want FTTP then you're going to have to pay.
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Weaver

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2016, 11:29:18 PM »

@ronski - I would be willing to pay quite a lot, considering my meagre abilities anyway, for FTTP, seeing as I pay for three DSL lines now.
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Bowdon

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2016, 12:17:31 AM »

I think fibre should be seen as a modernising step to copper.

The demands from the Internet grow each year. The normal might be lower than expected now, but its always increasing.

I'm sure quite a few people here were around when computers and the internet were just geek activities. Then in around the year 2000 suddenly it become mainstream.

I think high quality streaming channels (which is slowly becoming a reality) will struggle on most adsl lines. It will only take a slight interruption to cause buffering.

Also as I noted before, I have been surprised at the lack of local public groups (by the people) pushing for fibre in their local communities.

From what I've seen of the better technologies, the initial lump sum is high. But its the demand for a maintenance fee on top of the subscription fee that rocks it. Why do we need a maintenance fee of £200+ per month, and thats seperate to the subscription you have to pay. I think its greed. Maybe they try to price people out in order to keep the technology at its most profitable.

I would rather be tied in to a longer contract than be paying a maintenance fee. I'm sure if anything did go wrong they would be trying to stiff me for the bill for that too.

I would imagine they could set a higher fee for 'ultra' fast fibre to offset the costs. Maybe start at £40 per month. It would be interesting for ISP's themselves to become semi broadcasters. Full fibre would allow for online channels, similar to the now BBC Three.
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Ronski

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2016, 10:17:25 AM »

@Weaver,  I was thinking of you when I said some will be willing to pay.

@Bowdon, FTTC and gfast are/will gradually extend the reach of fibre, eventually I'm sure we'll be almost full fibre and because of the further reach for gfast FTTPOD will hopefully be a lot cheaper. The question is how long is this going to take, and this is where the quicker to install technologies such as FTTC and gfast pay off, the majority get speeds they need sooner than a full FTTP roll out.

Hopefully as our needs increase the speeds will rise to match, but there will always be users who want more.

PS. I started my computer experience with ZX81, then the Spectrum, Research Machines 380Z, and purchased my first proper PC in 1994 so have grown up with dial modems and the birth of the internet as we know it today.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:22:34 AM by Ronski »
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Weaver

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2016, 03:22:13 PM »

It's always nice to know someone is thinking about you. ;D
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Dave2150

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Re: News from across the pond.
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2016, 04:54:07 PM »

Dave you seem to have a lot to learn, both about business and about what people really want, yes the few want FTTP and are willing to pay but the majority couldn't care less. I would love FTTP, but I'm not willing to pay, I realise the time scale it would take and the cost to roll it out to every one in the short term is too much. If I had the choice between what I have now, which is 48/8 or paying double for 80/20 then hand on heart I'd choose what I have now as I have no need for more speed at the moment

Somebody I know at work is paying through the nose for ADSL Max, he didn't even know he could get faster speeds on ADSL 2+ it seems his ISP never upgraded him when it became available. Turns out he could even have 80/20 he's that close to his cabinet, I told him weeks ago, may be even months ago and he still hasn't changed over.

I'm not suggesting a 100% FTTP rollout right now, that would indeed take a very long time and cost too many billions.

I'm suggesting taking small steps that would greatly increase the FTTP footprint over a few years. One example is making it a law that every new dwelling gets FTTP,  and preventing BT from installing any new local loop of copper.

Once the new houses (with native FTTP) start selling for more money than the bog standard aluminium/copper fed older house, the older generation will suddenly get interested in supporting FTTP, which will put further pressure on the government to increase roll-out of FTTP.
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