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Author Topic: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED  (Read 12340 times)

konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2016, 11:26:37 PM »

Quote from: burakkucat
Perhaps you could examine the ITU-T Recommendations Document G.992.3 [1] and also the Broadband Forum Technical Report TR-138 [2] to see if those documents clarify the process?
Quote from: G.922.3 page 113
The HLOGps accuracy requirements shall apply only to those subcarriers with an SNR (as defined
in clause 8.12.3.3) ≥ 12 dB, where the SNR is the SNR value measured during initialization.

The accuracy requirements for the downstream HLOGps (HLOGps_ds) shall apply only to the
following subcarriers (with the corresponding frequency ranges being a part of the passband), and
only if not within the downstream BLACKOUTset (see clause 8.13.2.4):

Annexes A and I:
Subcarriers 46 to 208.

Annex L:
Subcarriers 46 to 104.

Annexes B, J and M: Subcarriers 92 to 208.
It implicates that SNR is measured before Hlog. Furthermore, I have additional evidence, if I have connection with slightly higher power output for tones belonging to HAM band mask I get sligthly less jigged Hlog for this band.

Furterhmore, there is one issue which I have explained unclearly before. Do you see that other circuit Hlog (normal hlog.png) have also sligthly higher attenuation at the place of my lazy roll (highlighted by greem, tone 55)? I see similar pattern at this place (however on normal hlog hardly noticable). Furthermore, these tones are ending tones of upstream Annex M band. I think it is Annex M PSD mask. I think overall shape of my Hlog is caused by measurement errors related to PSD masks or something similar. On my DSLAM there are significantly more errors.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 11:31:18 PM by konrado5 »
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2016, 11:47:27 PM »

Quote from: G.922.3 page 113
The HLOGps accuracy requirements shall apply only to those subcarriers with an SNR (as defined
in clause 8.12.3.3) ≥ 12 dB, where the SNR is the SNR value measured during initialization.

The accuracy requirements for the downstream HLOGps (HLOGps_ds) shall apply only to the
following subcarriers (with the corresponding frequency ranges being a part of the passband), and
only if not within the downstream BLACKOUTset (see clause 8.13.2.4):

Annexes A and I:
Subcarriers 46 to 208.

Annex L:
Subcarriers 46 to 104.

Annexes B, J and M: Subcarriers 92 to 208.
It implicates that SNR is measured before Hlog.

Thank you for finding the details and clarifying the sequence of events.

Quote
Furthermore, I have additional evidence, if I have connection with slightly higher power output for tones belonging to HAM band mask I get sligthly less jigged Hlog for this band.

Ah, yes, the "Top Band" mask for the 1.8 - 2.0 MHz frequency band.

Quote
Furterhmore, there is one issue which I have explained unclearly before. Do you see that other circuit Hlog (normal hlog.png) have also sligthly higher attenuation at the place of my lazy roll (highlighted by greem, tone 55)? I see similar pattern at this place (however on normal hlog hardly noticable). Furthermore, these tones are ending tones of upstream Annex M band. I think it is Annex M PSD mask. I think overall shape of my Hlog is caused by measurement errors related to PSD masks or something similar. On my DSLAM there are significantly more errors.

I can see your reasoning and, thus, I am prepared to accept your proposal. However, overall, it is quite a small effect.

As we have discussed before, going back many, many months, you have a very stable and well behaved circuit. Far more stable than the average ADSL2+ circuit here in the UK. For example, I could never configure my circuit to operate with a target SNRM of just 1 dB.
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2016, 11:58:14 PM »

Quote from: burakkucat
However, overall, it is quite a small effect.
What do you have on your mind? On normal hlog there is very small effect on the tones 55-100 but on my Hlog there is large effect.
Quote from: burakkucat
As we have discussed before, going back many, many months, you have a very stable and well behaved circuit. Far more stable than the average ADSL2+ circuit here in the UK. For example, I could never configure my circuit to operate with a target SNRM of just 1 dB.
This is additional argument that my Hlog measurement have a lot of measurement errors. :)

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konrado5
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2016, 04:44:25 PM »

burakkucat: This is Hlog for circuit with only one conductor connected. Do you see that dip on tone 55 is very deep?

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konrado5
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2016, 05:05:37 PM »

Yes, I see it. But a circuit with only one wire of the pair connected is defective. Why do you want me to look at it?

Perhaps I have misunderstood. Are making a collection of Hlog plots for various circuit defects?
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2016, 05:21:57 PM »

Yes, I see it. But a circuit with only one wire of the pair connected is defective. Why do you want me to look at it?
I wanted to show that weaker signal received by CPE gives larger measurement error (larger difference between 55 tone and for example 85 tone).
Furthermore, you've missed previous post.
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 10:50:40 PM »

burakkucat: do you see that on hlog15db.png on some tones there is higher attenuation than on usualhlog.png? It indicates that measurements errors are both up and down. Do you see that lazy roll has smaller depth on hlog15db.png? It indicates that roll is one of measurement errors. Do you still think my circuit consists many wires of different gauge?

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konrado5
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 11:01:38 PM »

I am sorry but I do not know.  :no:
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2016, 06:20:49 PM »

I've found someone other Hlog with the same pattern at the place of my lazy roll.
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2016, 07:02:07 PM »

There is another one Hlog with similar pattern however this circuit has bridge taps unless I know.
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2016, 11:16:50 PM »

In the case of the last Hlog plot, I would certainly suspect the presence of a bridging tap.

With access to the raw data that produced the plot it should be fairly easy to confirm my suspicion.
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2016, 01:53:24 AM »

OK, I attach raw data.
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2016, 07:45:18 PM »

Thank you. I've downloaded a copy of the data but I am not going to be able to perform the calculations today.

Perhaps you remember a thread from a few months ago when WWWombat and I were performing some calculations to determine the length of a bridging tap? (And I performed the calculation incorrectly . . .  :-[  ) We used a table from a JDSU Application Note, titled "Detecting Bridged Tap and Noise Interference in VDSL2 Access Networks using the JDSU SmartClassTM TPS". (I think I have given you a copy of that document, in the past.) It is Table 2 on Page 7 . . . if you would like to try and see if you get a consistent answer for the bridging tap's length.
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burakkucat

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2016, 10:21:16 PM »

Having downloaded a copy of the raw data (hlogj3w9k.txt) my first action was to re-plot the Hlog graph so that there was more detail on the scale of the X-axis. (A copy of the graph is attached, below.)

Taking note of the approximate location of each minimum (from the graph), I then turned to the tabular data and attempted to specify each minimum by sub-carrier (tone). It was quite clear for the first, not quite so obvious for the second & third (neither were required for the calculations) and somewhat difficult for the fourth. For the latter minimum, I eventually decided to take note of the two extreme sub-carriers and perform the calculations twice.

Here is the table of the data used in the calculations --

Code: [Select]

 53      -25.5000
 54      -25.6250 Minimum 1
 55      -25.5625
 56      -25.5000

176      -34.6875
177      -34.7500
178      -34.8125
179      -34.8125 Minimum 2 (approximate)
180      -34.8125
181      -34.8125
182      -34.6875

298      -42.5625
299      -42.6875
300      -42.6250
301      -42.6250 Minimum 3 (approximate)
302      -42.6875
303      -42.6875
304      -42.5625

409      -50.2500
410      -50.0000
411      -50.3750 Minimum 4 ?
412      -50.2500
413      -50.3750
414      -50.4375
415      -50.4375 Minimum 4 ?
416      -50.3750


How can we be sure that we are looking at the effect of a bridging tap on that circuit's transfer function?

(A) Look at the shape of the lowest frequency minimum. Notice how it is similar to an exponential growth (or decay) curve that has been rotated in the plane and an image of itself reflected along the vertical axis. In this particular case it is not too clear but in other examples it is a distinct diagnostic "give away".

(B) Consider the delta between each successive minimum. Is it consistent?

The delta between minimum 1 & minimum 2 is (approximately) 125.
The delta between minimum 2 & minimum 3 is (approximately) 122.
The delta between minimum 3 & minimum 4 is (approximately) either 110 or 114.

The three deltas are of similar order of magnitude hence, coupled with the shape of minimum 1, we can conclude that we are looking the effect of a bridging tap.

The calculations will be performed using minima 1 and 4, noting that there are two intervening minima.

Now working with the relevant data from Table 2 of the JDSU Application Note ("Detecting Bridged Tap and Noise Interference in VDSL2 Access Networks using the JDSU SmartClassTM TPS"):

Using the minima at 54 & 411. Delta is 357.
According to Table 2, for two sub-minima . . .

350 198.8
400 173.9

Interpolation for 357 gives either . . .

350 / 357 = N / 198.8

So N = 350 x 198.8 / 357 = 194.90

Or . . .

357 / 400 = 173.9 / N

So N = 173.9 x 400 / 357 = 194.85

Using the minima at 54 & 415. Delta is 361.
According to Table 2, once again, for two sub-minima . . .

350 198.8
400 173.9

Interpolation for 361 gives either . . .

350 / 361 = N / 198.8

So N = 350 x 198.8 / 361 = 192.74

Or . . .

361 / 400 = 173.9 / N

So N = 173.9 x 400 / 361 = 192.69

The arithmetic mean of the four above values is --

(194.90 + 194.85 + 192.74 + 192.69) / 4 = 193.80

The delta of 194.90 & 193.80 is 1.10

The delta of 193.80 & 192.69 is 1.11

Accepting the larger of the two deltas, 1.1, (to one decimal place) as the error, I propose that the bridging tap responsible for the effect shown in the Hlog plot has a length of 193.8 +/- 1.1 metres.

We cannot deduce the location of the start of the bridging tap (relative to a known location in the circuit) by considering the Hlog plot. Other techniques (Time Domain Reflectometry, for example) would have to be deployed to obtain the required datum point.
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konrado5

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Re: My strange Hlog finally EXPLAINED
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2016, 10:42:34 PM »

As I know this circuit has three bridge taps.
What do you say about difference between my usual hlog and hlog with target SNR margin 15 dB (and higher power output)? Do you see that better graph (hlog15db) has also higher attenuation at some frequiences? It implicates there are also measurements errors causing lowering attenuation value.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:46:37 PM by konrado5 »
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