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Author Topic: BT to divert nuisance calls  (Read 12428 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2016, 12:32:35 AM »

It can block IP or VOIP calls

Now I am truly lost.  ???

We are discussing a new Service, to be released by BT, according to BBC, that will automatically divert nuisance calls, claiming to kill them by the millions,  and will be free.

It quite different to a call blocker - that is something quite different, usually a separate piece of kit or a special phone in your own home, and have signfifcant restrictions in functionality compared to filtering within the network.
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kitz

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2016, 12:40:00 AM »

Touch wood I dont get too many.   Ive been TPS for years and Im ex-d and no with-held.
Ive had one of the "Your computer has a virus" and a "You have won a Florida holiday" which must have been random dials.   

My parents got very little until about 2/3yrs ago when on Sky despite being TPS.   

We also suspect Swinton Insurance [or someone related to them] has been selling data.  My dad was involved in someone smashing into the side of him 2 years ago.   
Because it was in Tesco carpark and dad was only doing about 15mph when a woman turned straight into him.  No-one was hurt and all he wanted was his car repairing.  After that he started getting a lot of calls about it saying he should claim personal injury.   I'm not talking the generic calls, these were specific and knew the date and place etc and knew mum was also in the car.

These calls became a bit too much, like several per day so dad enquired at Swinton who denied it was them.   However, I do supsect they do have something to do with it.

The event Im about to tell is no word of a lie and draw your own conclusions.

Last March dad put me on his insurance and provided my details. 
When dad was in hospital mum was repeatly getting upset as the calls to the point she would stop answering the phone.
On the 23rd of October I was round at Mums having just dropped her off and the phone rang so I answered

The convo went something like 

Indian guy "Im ringing about your accident on Jan 'x' at 'y'"
Me "Look please just stop these calls - take us off your list.  We've just been told dad is terminal go away.  Never call again". 

I went straight home after this and as I was walking through the door my phone rang

Indian guy "Im ringing about the accident last January in your 'enter dads make of car'
Me:  Hang on a mo.  Didnt I speak to you 5 mins ago on my fathers phone number.
Me:  "I told you my father was terminal with cancer and not to bother us again "
Indian guy: "Yes you did.  I am sorry.  Hope your father gets better soon".
Kitz goes totally balistic.  "You do understand terminal - like he has hours left.  Go on eff off.
Indian guy: "I am so sorry - Please not scream at me".   

So how the heck did they know
1) The date of the accident
2) The make of dads car
3) My telephone number, which dad only gave them when adding me on his insurance.   
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2016, 12:51:54 AM »

@Kitz

I believe these details would all appear on CUE  (Cliams and Underwriting Exchange) database, accessible to anybody in the industry. 

When I had a no-fault crunch a few years ago, then insured through AA, they automatically passed all my details on to a PI company, insisted I claim for a bad elbow.  And also a car-hire company, got me a nice BMW for a few weeks.  And AA's brokers no doubt got a whack of commission from both.

You can submit a CUE Subject Access Request, for a small fee of £10 or so I believe, maybe that would reveal who else has accessed the data?  I'm not going to give a link as most of the top hits on Google seem to be from fakers trying to intercept.  Last time I looked the genuine link was obvious, but not any more.
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kitz

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2016, 01:25:39 AM »

CUE could explain them having access to details about the accident.   However surely this type of information shouldnt ever get into the hands of ambulance chasers.   :(

The other thing which I think is important to note is my phone number should not have been linked anywhere to the accident.  Dad would normally renew things like this himself, but it was only after he became ill last year that he started giving my details.  He was too poorly last year to drive himself there so had to be taken and he'd gradually been adding my details as authorised to speak on his behalf for things he thought mum wouldn't understand. 

Someone somewhere is making a nice sideline selling personal data. :(
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 08:11:41 AM »

I'd not be at all surprised if the contact phone number, related to a claim, were stored on CUE.   Many insurance contracts that I've bothered do read assign pretty sweeping rights to the insurance companies, for storing and sharing of customer's personal data.

But regardless of the details, Kitz's example of ambulance chasers is one reason I think the BT proposal probably won't work....

...Most of would agree that calls from ambulance chasers are in the 'nuisance' category, but if they are not doing anything illegal I don't see that BT would be able to block them.   Conversely, if they were doing something illegal it would be a matter for the courts...  BT would not be allowed to be 'judge and jury'.   :(
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guest

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 11:02:31 AM »

For me its a result of having domains which I manage myself. As part of the zonefile you are required to enter contact numbers for both tech and admin contacts and for some domain suffixes (.org being one, .eu being another) those numbers are periodically checked for accuracy. Unfortunately they also get harvested - perhaps not quite so much now as RIRs & LIRs keep a tighter grip on bulk "whois" requests. However for me that particular stable door is long past bolting.

So my landline number has been "in the wild" for 15+ years and is probably on every English language telephone spamlist in existence.

Its been on the TPS for that timescale and TPS has had zero effect - ever. No surprise as self-regulation NEVER works in the UK.

The way the current generation of autodialers work (last year or so) is to initially present a blank CLID (NB - not withheld, but blank). If the call is rejected then the autodialer redials about 1 hour later with a number (invalid) which is geographically close to you. However the CLID is invalid because the last digit is never presented.

If faking the CLID to gain pecuniary advantage were a criminal offence then it'd be a different story....
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jelv

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 11:04:15 AM »

I think I understood the VoIP comment.

I have a normal telephone number (01747 xxxxxx) associated with my VoIP phone from Sipgate. Depending on where BT do the filtering the calls could be blocked before they get handed off to Sipgate.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 01:04:12 PM »

BT charging to block calls that they encourage :)

funny isnt it.
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Dray

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2016, 01:09:24 PM »

The way the current generation of autodialers work (last year or so) is to initially present a blank CLID (NB - not withheld, but blank). If the call is rejected then the autodialer redials about 1 hour later with a number (invalid) which is geographically close to you. However the CLID is invalid because the last digit is never presented.

Why do the 1st call with a blank number, why not just do the 2nd with a geographically close number?
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guest

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2016, 01:40:13 PM »

The way the current generation of autodialers work (last year or so) is to initially present a blank CLID (NB - not withheld, but blank). If the call is rejected then the autodialer redials about 1 hour later with a number (invalid) which is geographically close to you. However the CLID is invalid because the last digit is never presented.

Why do the 1st call with a blank number, why not just do the 2nd with a geographically close number?

The blank number will get them past landlines/phones which don't accept CLID withheld calls and isn't generally possible for the end-user to block without some form of dedicated callblocker.

The whole issue is simple enough to fix - enforce the correct CLID presentation (this is NOT rocket science) and enact "Do Not Call" legislation such as the USA has where the end-user gets compensation for every illegal call made to them. Won't happen in the UK though, not in a million years. Edit - or until its no longer profitable for (mainly) Tory donors/peers to run such hellholes.

Annoys the hell out of me mainly because I have to pay a ridiculous "line rental" charge ostensibly for a "voice service" which has been abused to the extent that few people (I know) will pickup unknown calls on their landline. In fact I'd say perhaps 30% of the people I know in the UK have nothing other than a router/modem plugged into their landline.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 01:44:41 PM by rizla »
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kitz

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2016, 03:30:38 PM »

Now obviously SOMEONE knows who to bill for the calls and that "someone" will be renting capacity from a major teleco. Presenting a fake CLID with an automated dialer should be grounds for instant termination of service but of course none of the UK telecos is willing to take the hit in revenue.

I applaud the decision BT Retail has taken but can't help feeling its going to have a limited effect as it doesn't address the main problem.

Aren't the vast majority of unwanted calls meant to originate from outside the UK? 
OFCOM acknowledges this and also state that they account for a "significant and growing proportion of nuisance calls" when it comes to CLI spoofing.
Overseas calls is where TPS is useless and OFCOM are powerless to act. :( 

Out of curiosity does the UK telco's benefit from overseas nuisance calls?


Quote
I applaud the decision BT Retail has taken but can't help feeling its going to have a limited effect as it doesn't address the main problem.

Ive no idea how spoofing can be stopped.  As you say, the proposals doesn't tackle the whole issue.   But I suppose something is better than nothing.

In a way, it sounds like what BT are doing could be the equivalent of SFS when it comes to forum spam.  SFS isnt fool proof and there are ways around it - such as the Indian guy sat in a cyber cafe working for peanuts.   But even those do eventually get caught.
The spammers are constantly looking for new ids or new (proxy) IPs, but it only takes one member of SFS to report them, then they are flagged for all others.   On the whole it works pretty well.

When it comes to forum spam, I not only access project honeypot database, but have a honey pot running to catch bots and this info is fed to the main database. Over the past few years Ive caught 364125 bots (just checked my stats) which have been added to the central database.     

I suppose this would be the equivalent to catching CLI spoofers.  I wonder if there was any way some sort of honey pot could be set up for CLI spoofing.  Your thoughts on this?



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kitz

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2016, 03:44:51 PM »

BT charging to block calls that they encourage :)
funny isnt it.

Im afraid I dont understand what you mean.  We are talking about the same subject ie BT to divert nuisance calls for free

Quote
But the new service will identify some of the 5 billion unwanted calls made each year before they arrive.
They will then be diverted automatically to a junk voicemail box.
Customers will be able to add numbers they don't want to hear from, for free.
The hope is that action from BT will turn the tables on nuisance callers.

I thought the issue under discussion was although it will help a bit, it doesnt tackle the root cause and CLI spoofing.
OFCOM is supposedly working with other international regulators to find a solution.   
Unfortunately I dont hold out much hope here when it comes to regulation.   There will always be certain countries which become a soft touch and safe haven.  Just like how China/parts of India/parts of the old Eastern Bloc are now when it comes to spam and bots.
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Weaver

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2016, 03:52:57 PM »

I don't have any PSTN at all myself now, just VoIP, with my ISP, Andrews and Arnold, providing the service and a DECT IP phone.
Did you port your original number onto SIP?   I'm half considering that myself so we can keep our number.  On the other hand I don't see how porting to SIP would remove nuisance calling.

No, I chose a new vaguely geographically correct number.

I don't see how porting to SIP is going to help.
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c6em

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2016, 04:14:51 PM »

I'm sure @Kitz that it would follow the BT privacy option model
That is to say free for a while
...and the suddenly it becomes only free with a new contract term
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to divert nuisance calls
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2016, 05:46:41 PM »

International gateway exchanges certainly don't simplify things.

For a while in the 90s and early 0s iirc, the UK and some European exchanges would completely strip/depopulate the CLI parameter (as opposed to just marking it as 'presentation restricted') at international gateways for calls bound for the USA.   

The problem then was, privacy regulations in the US were different.   Specifically, if a caller withheld the number (prefixed 141, or just asked BT to withhold always) but was calling a freephone US number, US apparatus might not honour it and might present the callers the number anyway - the reasoning being, if they pay for the call they have a right to see who's calling.   Not wrong, you can see their point,  but different, and might surprise UK callers.

Note also again, there are valid reasons for presenting a number that is different to genuine CLI, such as when a local branch of a big company calls a customer, they might want the corporate number to be displayed. That is why the protocols allow it.
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