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Author Topic: My History Of ADSL Speeds  (Read 14225 times)

WWWombat

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2016, 01:21:07 AM »

Moving PSTN for the sake of it seems unlikely - the need to stay in service would surely make things "fun".

I'd have thought that were even more true of the fibre backhaul.
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Weaver

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2016, 01:27:26 AM »

When you mentioned forced upgrading from 20CN, it made me start pondering. Forced upgrading for me would have saved me having to pay £11 per line for upgrades to 21CN, but I was so impatient, I wanted it done for Xmas (which BT OpenReach did manage, by one day), rather than having to wait until some mysterious unspecified date. It's all very weird, what happens is - if my understanding is correct- a mixture of user choice, ISP choice and no choice, if that makes any sense.
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gt94sss2

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2016, 02:02:32 AM »

When you mentioned forced upgrading from 20CN, it made me start pondering. Forced upgrading for me would have saved me having to pay £11 per line for upgrades to 21CN, but I was so impatient, I wanted it done for Xmas (which BT OpenReach did manage, by one day), rather than having to wait until some mysterious unspecified date. It's all very weird, what happens is - if my understanding is correct- a mixture of user choice, ISP choice and no choice, if that makes any sense.

For exchanges like yours (the majority), BT Wholesale offer ISPs free bulk migrations to 21CN. Your decision/impatience(!) to order it before then resulted in you paying the £11/line (though you have saved on A&A fees).

Eventually though BT decommission the 20CN equipment and IPStream Connect at migrated exchanges, so if an ISP doesn't opt for a free upgrade they will ultimately need to take action later

Some of the newer exchanges don't have space to run the older DSLAMS along side newer MSANS hence the prospect of 'forced migrations'

As BT Wholesale put it

Quote
We would like to convert more to WBC but it’s problematic. These tend to:
•be much smaller exchanges so have limited space for new equipment
•have older equipment
•have more challenging economics
•pre-Undertakings wiring (so Ofcom will need to update the existing exemption)

though I don't think you're going to see this start until the summer - they are still completing the last of the 'easier' exchanges to convert.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 02:09:12 AM by gt94sss2 »
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Weaver

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2016, 02:12:13 AM »

>  (though you have saved on A&A fees).

You mean I saved money because of the half-price daytime 21CN GB per unit deal ?
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gt94sss2

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2016, 01:39:49 PM »

>  (though you have saved on A&A fees).

You mean I saved money because of the half-price daytime 21CN GB per unit deal ?

Yes:) reflecting the fact that 21CN is cheaper for ISPs as well..
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kitz

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2016, 02:16:37 PM »

I'd have thought that were even more true of the fibre backhaul.

That definitely appears to have been relocated. 
Original position of the fibre trays was at the back near to the LLU MSANs.  (Both LLU & BTw)
Where is was, there are now more MSANs and all the fibre trays for the backhaul are at the very front.   There's a hell of a lot more fibre trays now and they are in a totally different casing.


I have a photo from last time I was in there,  which if you look closely you can see the reflection of an LLU Handover frame, which were (and still are) at the back.  BS should be able to confirm that they are now at the front and they look nothing like this:




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Black Sheep

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2016, 02:22:58 PM »

As the lady says above ^^^^.  :)
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Weaver

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2016, 09:20:35 AM »

Guys, what am I seeing in Kitz' excellent photo?
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Black Sheep

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2016, 10:00:33 AM »

Fibre trays, Weaver. Exactly what duties these particular trays are performing is anybody's guess ...... the writing on the trays themselves would have to be read and interpreted ??  :)

Kitz took the photo I assume, so maybe she can enlighten us further ...... but I suspect it's as she comments above that they are possibly backhaul ??
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WWWombat

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2016, 11:23:55 AM »

I'd have thought that were even more true of the fibre backhaul.

That definitely appears to have been relocated. 
Original position of the fibre trays was at the back near to the LLU MSANs.  (Both LLU & BTw)
Where is was, there are now more MSANs and all the fibre trays for the backhaul are at the very front.   There's a hell of a lot more fibre trays now and they are in a totally different casing.

By backhaul, I assume you mean backhaul from the exchange back to the nearest WDM/Metro node? Rather than backhaul from FTTC into the exchange?

Perhaps the growth of this fibre, and the pooled nature it can offer, has allowed for easy migration. You just add more fibre at the "front", migrate backhaul sessions off the "back", which then allows you to calmly re-parent the original fibre so that it too arrives into the front space.

Migrating live copper offers something that live fibre doesn't ... it can be connected to two points in the exchange at a time, allowing temporary bypasses to be wired in when a migration is needed.

So I can image that backhaul fibre can be migrated by soft switching of sessions - unless there are no strands left available - but access network fibre would be somewhat harder.

I can't imagine that, once one of these is full, you would ever want to move it much...

Click for full-size image

I think the yellow cables coming in top-left are the fibres coming in from the aggregation nodes; 576 fibres when full.
The cables exiting top-right are the hydra cables that take those fibres into the handover layer 2 switch.
I think this is, essentially, the MDF of the optical world.

That photo was from MrSaffron's Cornish visit, and the hydra cables fed into layer 2 switches like this:


Migrating these fibres over to a different physical location, either for the rack or the switch, would surely be hellish!
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kitz

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2016, 02:56:17 PM »

Guys, what am I seeing in Kitz' excellent photo?
Fibre trays, Weaver. Exactly what duties these particular trays are performing is anybody's guess ...... the writing on the trays themselves would have to be read and interpreted ??  :)

Kitz took the photo I assume, so maybe she can enlighten us further ...... but I suspect it's as she comments above that they are possibly backhaul ??

That was the ODF / Optical Fibre Distribution Fame Cabinet which is kind of a convergence point for all the DSLAMs and MSANs in the exchange. 

Kind of like a large version of the FTTP spitters in the field.  The difference being those in the field split bandwith from the exchange into fibre to the premises.   Those in effect do the reverse, by merging the MSAN traffic to the backhaul...  or perhaps easier to understand..  split traffic coming from the exchange backhaul into lots of smaller fibre cables to the correct MSANs.   

The top rack was for the LLU MSANs - From top to bottom  BE, Tiscali, Opal, Easynet.
The bottom rack was BTw owned DSLAMS and MSANs.

The (thinner orange) optical fiber you see in each tray on the RH side of the picture connect to each of the MSANs (or NIM modules on say the Fujitsu hubs) and the thicker fibre cable on the left was the backhaul out of the exchange to the bRAS (BTw) or PoP (LLU).

At that particular time, the exchange only had 5 LLU MSANs and in the larger image hi res image I have, you can see that the Opal Tray fed both what was the AOL and TalkTalk MSAN.

[Moderator edited to correct a minor typo; nothing factual.]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:36:22 PM by burakkucat »
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kitz

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2016, 03:25:12 PM »

Quote
By backhaul, I assume you mean backhaul from the exchange back to the nearest WDM/Metro node? Rather than backhaul from FTTC into the exchange?

Yes the exchange ATM backhaul on to what used to be known as MSiP.   That exchange was still 20CN when the above photo was taken.

Quote
Migrating live copper offers something that live fibre doesn't ... it can be connected to two points in the exchange at a time, allowing temporary bypasses to be wired in when a migration is needed.

No idea how they did it, perhaps during the migration to 21CN?  I certainly recall there being several outages in the wee small hours usually at around 1am - despite me being on BE at the time.  During that period there was lots of night work going on and I'd see lights on when coming home at night.   

Ive been trying to rack my brains what was at the front where the new ODF now is. I think it was where or at least very near to where the DACs units and LDU's used to be.   
BS may also be able to help me out here, but I think just to the left of that photo there may also some old fashioned black dial like meters which iirc were explained to me as pressure guages/monitors for something or other which was in the basement?  Really cant recall anything much about what was downstairs as we were only allowed a quick peek around the door.  The excuse at the time was something about a build up of gasses and it wasn't very nice down there without masks.  [Thinking again - could it have been flooded at some time and stunk?  Im sure they said something about H&S].  Im not certain on my facts here... long time ago.
 
What used to be at the front in the row where the fibre trays now are (such as the LDU's, DACs and those pressure gauge thingies)- I cant recall seeing any of that now there.   That said the other day was a flying visit and I was more looking at the fibre trays than what was around it, so may have missed it.   

In fact just looking through some of the photos I didn't publish and on this photo of the geostream_hub, if you look to the left it shows what would now more or less now where the new ODF is located.

They definitely have done some major shifting around and upgrading in there.  There used to be a lot of floor space, now there is hardly any and the LLU MSANs take up quite a fair chunk of it.

Quote
I think the yellow cables coming in top-left are the fibres coming in from the aggregation nodes; 576 fibres when full.
The cables exiting top-right are the hydra cables that take those fibres into the handover layer 2 switch.
I think this is, essentially, the MDF of the optical world.

Calling it an optical equivalent of the MDF is quite a good comparison. 
   
I think the photos you posted, the top one is an FTTx OLT and the bottom one is possibly what is classed as Element Manager for ECI cabs when we talk about DLM.  They come under differing names depending on manufacturer, but its kind of the FTTC equivalent of the Fujitsu geostream hub for the adsl MSANs.   These are the master switches/hubs and convergence of the 'xbrand' dslams or msans.  Could be very wrong here though as Im assuming from descriptions, so please dont take it as gospel.   

One of the things I'd like to do is visit an exchange that has FTTC/FTTH head end equipment but something Ive not got around to doing or even asking.  It would be even better if like last time they designated someone from BTw to guide me round and explain what everything was.    On that occasion most of the visit was at a larger exchange.   
The second (1/2) day was my own exchange with an Openreach guy...  that was also quite interesting because they'd taken my phone no and plotted its route my traffic would take..  eg your copper terminates here. This is your line on the MDF, from here it goes to this MSAN, then it goes over here (waving hands in air at the overhead cables) to this ODF.
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kitz

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2016, 03:51:24 PM »

PS note

Its a shame I have to do the justification and explanation post, but of late I'm a bit tired of the false accusations.
Let me state I am not a BT employee,  Im not paid by BT, I have no official links with BT and don't receive remuneration in any shape or form from BT.    The whole idea of the site was to make information public about BT about how they work for those who were interested.  Its a hobbyist, help and information site.   BT are aware of the site and its contents but dont have any say over what I write. 

Re the photo's and reasons why Ive been allowed several exchange visits. 

I was lucky it was all authorised at the top by Ben Verwaayen just prior to him leaving..  and before anyone thinks its to do with 'being in bed or paid by BT'  no its not.   I was one of the very first adsl campaigners to bring broadband to the Blackpool area.  We worked hard and I have fought many a battle with BTw in the past when we did eventually get adsl  for and on behalf of others.     Ben was actually very supportive of the campaigners - broadband was his baby.    When DSL was eventually rolled out to most exchanges in the UK, we were all invited to BTtowers (iirc there were about 50 of us dotted around the UK).   Unfortunately I couldn't go due to work commitments on that day, and although most campaigners had already been around their own exchanges...  this was something I requested for missing out on the BT Tower visit before he left.

 In my time Ive fought many bloody battles to get things sorted by BT and Plusnet.  I earned respect because I presented facts and fought for EU's.  I didnt go around saying BT are p00 I would take research facts and present them as a counter augment. Around here at one point they jokingly called me Kitz the Krusader because of the battles I fought with BT on behalf of the community.  I earned my respect with BT the hard way and through that came previously undisclosed knowledge.   Its surprising how much more info you could get if you say things like "why cant you do this?" if you have spend time doing your research properly... rather than "BT are spawn of the devil because they wont do that" without understanding that they may have some constraints too.   
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Black Sheep

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2016, 04:40:06 PM »

BS may also be able to help me out here, but I think just to the left of that photo there may also some old fashioned black dial like meters which iirc were explained to me as pressure gauges/monitors for something or other which was in the basement?

Indeed, Kitz ......... the old-style ECP (Equipment Cable Pressure) Rack was just to the side of that, as you say. This has now been replaced for a more modern looking unit. I haven't time to go looking for a photo of one, but shall endeavour to do so later if I remember ??

Both old and new style had the same function, to keep water ingress out of the E-side cables (Exchange to Cab cables). The rack was upstairs, but the flow-meters were connected to each cables pressured joint down in the cable-chamber. This chamber can sometimes see gasses get in through the ducts that lead from here into the outside world, and I'm guessing this is why you weren't allowed access ??

TBH ....... there's not much to see at all in there and they're dank places at the best of times.  :)

[Moderator edited to correct a minor typo, nothing factual.]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:38:03 PM by burakkucat »
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WWWombat

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Re: My History Of ADSL Speeds
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2016, 06:15:08 PM »

BS may also be able to help me out here, but I think just to the left of that photo there may also some old fashioned black dial like meters which iirc were explained to me as pressure guages/monitors for something or other which was in the basement?  Really cant recall anything much about what was downstairs as we were only allowed a quick peek around the door.  The excuse at the time was something about a build up of gasses and it wasn't very nice down there without masks.  [Thinking again - could it have been flooded at some time and stunk?  Im sure they said something about H&S].  Im not certain on my facts here... long time ago.

Does this page help explain what you might have seen, and how it links to the basement?

The E-side cables (and the junction/trunk cables to other exchanges, when copper) will have been pressurised by air to keep water out, so there's a good chance you saw something related to that.

Quote
I think the photos you posted, the top one is an FTTx OLT and the bottom one is possibly what is classed as Element Manager for ECI cabs when we talk about DLM.  They come under differing names depending on manufacturer, but its kind of the FTTC equivalent of the Fujitsu geostream hub for the adsl MSANs.   These are the master switches/hubs and convergence of the 'xbrand' dslams or msans.  Could be very wrong here though as Im assuming from descriptions, so please dont take it as gospel.   

I thought the top picture was an OCR - Optical Consolidation Rack, as seen near the bottom of this page. (The same manufacturer as the pole-mounted FTTP splitters and DP's, recently discussed). Also pictured here, but named confusingly. Don't spend ages following the rest of that photostream ;)

And I'm very sure the bottom picture was an Openreach layer 2 switch - this one specifically an ECI F152-HB OLT (more visible in the pdf on that page). The cards on the right terminate the GPON fibres; one nearer the centre terminates the fibres to FTTC cabinets, the one to the left terminates the cablelinks.

The combination of an OLT and an OCR feature in almost all of the FTTC architecture pictures and the FTTP architecture pictures we've come to know and love from BT, described as the handover node.

(While looking for links, I've come across one or two interesting FTTP alternatives.)

Quote
One of the things I'd like to do is visit an exchange that has FTTC/FTTH head end equipment but something Ive not got around to doing or even asking.

Something like this?

Quote
The second (1/2) day was my own exchange with an Openreach guy...  that was also quite interesting because they'd taken my phone no and plotted its route my traffic would take..  eg your copper terminates here. This is your line on the MDF, from here it goes to this MSAN, then it goes over here (waving hands in air at the overhead cables) to this ODF.
That's quite neat. A personalised cable tracer ;)
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