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[waltergmw]

Gentlefolk,

I was called to a property to assist a bewildered novice who had been bamboozled into a BT Retail VDSL self-install which only took from May 2015 to the beginning of January 2016 to receive her modem in the post. Her first problem is that she didn't see the greyed text instructing her to fit a dongle on her three phone sockets AND her Red Care alarm system.

The next problem is that the house wiring came to a non-standard screw terminal connector block with three outgoing pairs including ring wires. One pair went to an older-type master socket perhaps 3 inches away. Another pair probably went direct to a slave socket where the HH5 was installed with a filter dongle whilst the other presumably daisy-chained itself around the large property complete with the alarm system. I've no doubt that this horrible birds-nest must have produced the most glorious bridge tap imaginable ! This was amply illustrated by the 10 Mbps capped download sync speed on a line estimated to provide VDSL at a max of 30 Mbps down to a Min of 11.4 Mbps.

Fortunately the incoming line enters a standard BT connector box just inside the property where a new NTE5 with a Mk III integral filter faceplate
 might appear by magic !

I am curious to know what effects, if any, might be observed on the VDSL service from the Red Care signalling system once it is connected to the extension side of the filter faceplate ?
(I am aware of the need to inform the alarm company of the service interruption.)

Kind regards,
Walter

[Weaver]

Wow,

I just think self-install is really almost immoral. It just suggests that the ISP is not thinking about you and couldn't really give a damn about what happens. Surely it doesn't even save any money, because there will still probably be a callout afterwards anyway, and customer satisfaction goes through the floor and remains there long term. How different things could have been in 2002, or whenever.

[Black Sheep]

Aw c'mon guys ...... Openreach or the ISP's can't possibly be responsible for the EU's inability to read instructions and carry them out ??
Most self-installs go by without any issue at all. Those installations that do have 'Bridged Taps' or the like are able to ring their ISP and we will do a subsequent visit to remedy the situation.

ANY EU can request the 'Home Wiring Solution' module, upon requesting an upgrade to VDSL services. Whether they are knowingly given that option by the ISP is another matter. I know on a couple of occasions when sorting out bridged taps, that the EU commented they weren't told about the option of having an engineer visit on the day of the migration.
Add to the fact that even if the EU's are made aware, most will probably opt for the self-install when the ISP comments that "you just put filters in any socket in use".

No I'm sorry Walter ...... but this is just an anti-OR propaganda post IMHO. I know you don't like OR whatsoever, but this is not a good example of our sometime genuine mistakes. This particular case lies with either the EU or the ISP.

Regarding Redcare, (Which you shouldn't touch, and you don't contact the EU's Alarm company either, as they don't monitor it ...... Openreach Redcare Team do the monitoring), if you're quick enough re-connecting the wire the probability is they may put it down to a glitch ?? Who knows ??.

*Addendum ...... re-reading your OP you do appear to be pointing the finger at BTr ISP ....... ??

[gt94sss2]

I was called to a property to assist a bewildered novice who had been bamboozled into a BT Retail VDSL self-install which only took from May 2015 to the beginning of January 2016 to receive her modem in the post.

Can I ask how she was 'bamboozled' into a BT Retail VDSL self-install?

When we ordered the same online last August, we were given the choice of an engineer install (at a price- £40ish?) or a free self-install.

We chose self-install but I am recall the order process included stating something like if you don't get the speeds expected than call BT Retail and they would send an engineer out (which sounds to be the case here).

As much as I would prefer all installs to be a) free and b) engineer installs there is an expense in doing so and the fact is that self-installs work well for the vast majority and are more convenient (no need to wait in for an engineer).

Neither are the ISP (or Openreach) responsible for how the internal wiring was done..

 

[ejs]

In some cases, I would say Openreach are responsible for how the wiring was done, because they were the people who did it. We used to have three old LJU sockets, star wired to the line at a junction box on an outside wall. In 2013, in the process of fixing a telephone fault, that junction box was replaced and all the connections in it re-done, keeping the same star wiring arrangement as before. A couple of months later, the line appeared completely dead again, but this time the engineer managed to fix it by disconnecting one of the three sockets, which was unused anyway, leaving us with two star wired LJU sockets and a £129.99 charge to argue about.

[Black Sheep]

In some cases, I would say Openreach are responsible for how the wiring was done, because they were the people who did it. We used to have three old LJU sockets, star wired to the line at a junction box on an outside wall. In 2013, in the process of fixing a telephone fault, that junction box was replaced and all the connections in it re-done, keeping the same star wiring arrangement as before. A couple of months later, the line appeared completely dead again, but this time the engineer managed to fix it by disconnecting one of the three sockets, which was unused anyway, leaving us with two star wired LJU sockets and a £129.99 charge to argue about.

It all depends on the point in history, the service (DSL,PSTN,ISDN,PW,HH,BH,Redcare) presented to the EU, business or residential, aesthetics, EU's instruction ....... there's many, many reasons why star-wiring existed many, many moons ago ..... it didn't matter a jot back then.

In a business with thousands and thousands of engineers, we are going to get it wrong at some point ...... the law of averages dictates this ...... but some of the examples I see on these kinds of forum are p1ss-poor to say the very least. Everyone's a football manager, is the old saying ...... it would seem everyone's a telephone engineer at times One has to actually do the job to see the various instances thrown at us !!!

This isn't a dig at anyone in particular, it's a communal vent. 

[Bowdon]

I would ask was the option to have an engineer come and install the connection presented?

If it was and she chose self-install, maybe thinking it was a simple process and didn't want to pay the X amount of money then there isn't a lot she can do other than ask the ISP to send an engineer out.

If it wasn't presented, as some customer service people rush through things then she needs to challenge it. But in the short term she will have to pay up the £129.99.

It would be an idea to have a lower fee than the normal £129.99 call out fee if a home install as been completed with the last 6 months etc, maybe £70 imho.

At the moment I'd bite the bullet and get an OR engineer out and pay the fee. That's the best way to clear things up. Also at least she will know everything is fixed and updated for the future.

[waltergmw]

@ BS,

I'm sorry for the idea that O R are at fault as I have a lot of sympathy with them in their plight.

I am not aware of the precise conversation except that it had been ongoing since May 2015.
The person involved is a normal human being with a good grasp of practical matters but completely inexperienced in telephony and VDSL. She could well have benefitted from a clear explanation from a responsible BT R sales person rather than one presumably rewarded upon sales targets. She, along with many others, did not appreciate being told of an "up to 80 Mbps" resulting in 10 Mbps. She would have appreciated a cautionary call afterwards informing her of the substandard performance below the minimum BT Wholesale estimate and an engineer visit option, perhaps at a discount for a new contract.

RE Red care, whilst it may well be a BT product, the data in most cases is handed on to an alarm systems supplier. You either test their abilities waiting for their phone call informing their EU of a disconnection or you warn them in advance.

I would still appreciate some technical comment on the suitability and effects, if any, of a red care service on a VDSL service. One thing is obvious that the FTTC tie cable design introduces more twisted pair connections together with an additional risk of service disconnections / disruptions.

Kind regards,
Walter

[Black Sheep]

Hi Walter.

Redcare provision is a grey-area for we engineers. The rule book states that the wire going from the NTE5 to the BT92A (The little oblong redcare block usually sited next to the alarm panel), should in fact be terminated on the back-plate of the NTE5, along with the incoming drop-wire/UG feed.

This is stated 'we think' because it means less disruption of service should the EU want to add disconnect extension wires on the front-plate, and also ever so slightly more security in that the back-plate would also have to be unscrewed to get to the wires.

However, or whatever the rules and reasons are, we all know that by 'Starring' off the alarm at this point causes all manner of woe for an ADSL circuit, let alone a VDSL one. So, what I do (as I'm sure other engineers do to ?), is what you are alluding to and connecting the alarm wire on the front-plate with an SSFP also installed. With this method, there are no more issues and the redcare 'chirps' aren't affected.

Regarding the notification procedure, as engineers we have to contact the redcare monitoring people using an automated system that gives us a ticket number. We ring back afterwards to inform the auto-bot that work has finished (via inputting the ticket number) and the bot puts the 'chirps' back on the circuit.
We are also told to ask the EU to ring their own alarm monitoring company to explain what is about to happen.

Them's the rules that we have to work to ....... if you decide to go ahead, I personally can't see there being an issue especially if the work done is carried out quickly, as the alarm Co.s and the redcare monitors alike, realise that 'False alarms' occur due to engineers remaking joints etc etc ...... so a little bit of downtime may go un-noticed There's no harm at all though in doing as you suggested I suppose, and informing them yourself ??

[waltergmw]

@BS,

Thanks very much. That's most helpful. I suppose, in a perfect world, it would be better to have a dedicated Re Care line but let's not go there !
Kind regards,
Walter

[Black Sheep]

No probs  ................... and I totally agree about the 'Perfect world' ...... but cash talks. 

[waltergmw]

Walter's wheelbarrow seems to have worked minor miracles now with the HH5 connected directly to the master skt complete with a MK III integral filter faceplate.

Some improvements were made earlier by just removing ring-wires and fitting dongles which increased the sync from 10 Mbps to 18 mbps but I live in hope that DLM will relent and provide the maximum 40 / 10 service as the Attainable Net Data Rates look quite promising.


Max:   Upstream rate = 8099 Kbps, Downstream rate = 42732 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 4296 Kbps, Downstream rate = 17998 Kbps

   VDSL Port Details        Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:        8099 kbps          42732 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:          2.2 dBm           11.0 dBm
====================================================================================
   VDSL Band Status       U0     U1       U2       U3       U4     D1       D2     D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):    7.8    44.5     N/A     N/A     N/A    20.2    56.0    85.5   
Signal Attenuation(dB):    7.8    44.0     N/A     N/A     N/A    22.5    55.6     N/A   
      SNR Margin(dB):    14.1    12.5     N/A     N/A     N/A    17.1    17.1     N/A   
       TX Power(dBm):   -9.4    1.9     N/A     N/A     N/A    8.5    7.4     N/A   

Kind regards,
Walter

[burakkucat]

Max:   Upstream rate = 8099 Kbps, Downstream rate = 42732 Kbps
Bearer:   0, Upstream rate = 4296 Kbps, Downstream rate = 17998 Kbps

That is a most definite improvement.    It is now the waiting game . . . for the DLM to relent.

[Bald_Eagle1]

Walter's wheelbarrow seems to have worked minor miracles now with the HH5 connected directly to the master skt complete with a MK III integral filter faceplate.

Fantastic result, Walter.

Please see the attached animated gif that graphically demonstrates the immediate improvements made by the wheelbarrow's intervention for this connection.

This thread will hopefully assist in some way in explaining some of what to look for when trying to assess whether a connection is working optimally or not (particularly see the Hlog graph regarding the now addressed physical wiring issues).

Also, FWIW, this connection is to a Huawei DSLAM, so G.INP might also be applied at some stage.

[WWWombat]

That's an obvious difference in Hlog. Definitely a bridge tap...

From our previous discussions on Bridge taps (here), that first dip around tone 200 probably signifies that the line suffered a tap of around 60m in length.

The line statistics show that DLM intervention has both FEC and interleaving in place, as well as banding. I suspect that, as banding gets removed, and the reliance on FEC and interleaving decreases, we'll see the "max attainable" value come down to meet a rising sync speed, meeting somewhere in the middle. Perhaps 32/6 in the end.