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Author Topic: New Telephone interfering with ADSL  (Read 9424 times)

aesmith

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New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« on: December 31, 2015, 04:00:24 PM »

Hi,

We recently bought a new phone, Gigaset N300A.  Since our DSL is subject to a long running fault I have Routerstats Light running most of the time, and I noticed a distinct drop in noise margin corresponding to the time I plugged the new phone into the line, and a corresponding rise back to the previous value when I reverted to the old phone (Gigaset S795).   The change came when the telephone line was connected or removed from the socket, not when the PSU was connected, in fact during my test both old and new phones were powered up, it was just the line connector that was swapped.   It's a BT VDSL faceplate with no extension wiring.

The new phone is on it's way back to the supplier as faulty.   I just wondered on the offchance whether anyone's had a similar issue, and whether a line fault or a faulty filter could give these symptoms.   

Thanks, Tony S
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burakkucat

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2015, 06:29:11 PM »

It's difficult to say exactly what was occurring but I suspect that the new phone was presenting a significant (AC) shunt load to the pair and was thus attenuating the xDSL signal.  :-\
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Weaver

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2015, 06:44:34 PM »

I've had a similar problem, I double-microfiltered the phone, using an ADSL Nation XF1e dangly filter on the phone output of the faceplate. This cured any problems. Then I went VOIP and got rid of all PSTN phones. Much better. Now I need annex xx to give me the audio range for upstream. :-) fat chance.
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aesmith

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2015, 07:41:54 PM »

Cheers.  I tried an additional filter in line, but that made no difference.   Funnily enough the new phone was supposed to be the first step towards migration onto SIP since it can handle both, however we're not yet ready to ditch the number so need to be able to at least take incoming calls on POTS.

We'll see what the supplier comes back with, but they won't have the phone till the middle of next week.

By the way, what's Annex XX?   The standard relevant to uplink speed that I'm aware of is Annex M, but I'm not sure you'd want that on a long line unless you're happy to lose some download speed.   What codec/rate are you running your VoIP?  Personally I can't see the point of going higher than G711, and I've even had a few customer disliking the sound from G722 because the higher frequencies make it sound "tinny". 
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Weaver

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2015, 08:08:51 PM »

> the way, what's Annex XX?

It's annex J
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.992.3_Annex_J

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Weaver

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2015, 08:12:59 PM »

« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 08:17:31 PM by Weaver »
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vic0239

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2015, 09:53:32 PM »

When you posted about this on your other thread I unplugged my N300A, but didn't observe any noticeable effect. I didn't post this observation at the time so as not rub salt ... etc. Perhaps you just have a faulty unit  :fingers: or maybe it has a more adverse effect on an adsl line?  :(
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2016, 01:06:54 AM »

My understanding is that the purpose of the filter to isolate the phone from DSL, rather than vice versa  ie...

To prevent any audible pops or whistles from being heard on the phone.
To prevent the phone from loading/absorbing the energy of the DSL signal.

The DSL modem in contrast, in filters I have taken apart, is fed directly from the telephony pair, totally unfiltered.  So... since the phone, even if defective, should not in theory attenuate the DSL, I do not feel optimistic that a replacement phone will behave any differently... ???
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roseway

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2016, 07:52:25 AM »

Because the phone is connected directly to the incoming telephone line,, it clearly can affect the DSLsignal if it's defective or even badly designed. The ultimate defect would be a complete short circuit of course, which would stop everything working. But varying loads, resonances, etc. could affect the DSL in various ways.

[Edit] I must have had a senior moment when I posted that, because the phone obviously isn't directly connected to the line. :-[
But the remainder applies, I believe.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 11:35:21 AM by roseway »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2016, 11:14:07 AM »

Because the phone is connected directly to the incoming telephone line,, it clearly can affect the DSLsignal if it's defective or even badly designed. The ultimate defect would be a complete short circuit of course, which would stop everything working. But varying loads, resonances, etc. could affect the DSL in various ways.

My own understanding is as follows but as always, my 'electronics' knowledge is somewhat stale, so happy to be educated/corrected...

I thnk that the modem is usually connected directly to the incoming line, but the phone is isolated with low-pass filters on both conductors, ie inductors/chokes, which thus prevent the phone from 'seeing' the DSL signal.  And if it cannot see it, it cannot attenuate it. 

Even in the case of a direct short, a high frequency (DSL) signal could still be present on the 'line' side of a low-pass filter, though I doubt that is happening here as the phone would not be working.

It is true that if the inductors were defective, the phone would be able to affect the signal.   But the most likely failure mode of such a component would be open circuit, in which case again, the phone would not work at all.

That said, in any such environment all conductors and surfaces are acting as antenas and reflectors that will modify the effects of whatever interference exists, so I would expect some difference whenever a phone is connected - maybe better, maybe worse - but not too significant.   I assumed we are talking here about a more significant effect.

Or as said, I may just be wrong. :)
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JGO

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2016, 11:18:33 AM »

Because the phone is connected directly to the incoming telephone line,, it clearly can affect the DSLsignal if it's defective or even badly designed. The ultimate defect would be a complete short circuit of course, which would stop everything working. But varying loads, resonances, etc. could affect the DSL in various ways.

It seems possible too that it is a combination of the 'phone and an unfortunate lenght of cable connecting it to the system. This is unlikely but ignore Murphy's Law at your peril !
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aesmith

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2016, 04:10:03 PM »

Cheers.  It would have been interesting to retrain the router with the phone connected and disconnected, to see whether the reported attenuation changed. 
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Weaver

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2016, 04:50:04 PM »

The phone I believe can affect the operation of the microfilter by changing the load presented to the PSTN side. There is a piece in a DSL text book, whose title escapes me, about microfilter design describing this process.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 05:49:33 PM by Weaver »
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burakkucat

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2016, 05:12:31 PM »

Just adding one comment to the "type of filter and where in the ultimate circuit" . . .

A high-pass filter will be found within a modem or a modem/router and its purpose, of course, is to block all telephony related signals.
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Weaver

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Re: New Telephone interfering with ADSL
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2016, 05:52:15 PM »

Golden, Dedieu and Jacobsen. That was the book. The second volume.
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