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Author Topic: Fibre All The Way.  (Read 5644 times)

WWWombat

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2016, 03:32:35 PM »

Very insightful W3. You should be employed by someone, somewhere .... that needs to know this stuff.  ;) ;D ;D

Yeah. I just need to find someone who'll have me!

I am, though, considering a shift of career that would veer nearer to operational networking than software development.
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Weaver

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 03:59:34 PM »

It should be pretty obvious even to our leaders that if there are four users in a property they will want to consume more bandwidth than two users in another. Mrs Weaver wants lots of bandwidth so she can get her work done while I watch streaming video, but out of respect for her needs, I don't do so.
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Bowdon

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 04:10:50 PM »

I thought I'd contribute to this thread. I know my knowledge is very small compared to the depth you guys can go.

I was reading the thread and some interesting points are being made. Though the points are valid on one level, which I agree with. I feel that the situation isn't fully being looked at to answer why people choose the level of service.

The first point I'd like to make is that while upto 80 Mbps is advertised and generally offered in all fibre-enabled cab areas, quite a lot of lines aren't actually capable of receiving 80. Some arent capable of passing the 40. So though advertised in an area upto 80, the customer isn't going to order that if the predicted speeds will be under 40.

So in this situation, if taking a general look, it looks like the EU could have ordered 80 but ordered the 40 service instead. Then built on that general information it could be drawn that maybe the EU didn't need up to 80 speeds. Which as you can see in the example I've mentioned would have given off a wrong impression.

I would be interested to see the average connection speed most customers get. I remember looking at one average speed chart and noticing that the average speed was below mine. I'm connected at 65 Mbps. So it must have been between 50 and 60. I can't remember exactly but it was on the thinkbroadband site.

So unless we can get data on the actual connection speed a line is capable of then we won't know the reason why he chose 40 instead of 80.

I know that when I was contemplating moving over to VM at one point, though they have good speeds I heard a lot of stories that say most people on the higher speed packages never actually connect at that speed. Their connections get throttled at certain times of the day whether by VM or other users sharing the cable. So that can be a reason people don't buy the top speed package their too. Also they don't have the best uploading speeds. VM's cable technology seems to be like a hybrid bridge between FTTC and FTTP i.e. better than FTTC. But more unstable than FTTP.

The second point I'd like to make is that when it comes to FTTP, we should as a country be heading in that direction. It's not about a speed issue. It's more about a technology change. A change of delivery. Copper lines are on the way out. They are only around now because it would be too expensive to change everyone immediately to FTTP technology. That is why I am in full support of BT's G.fast as a half way point towards full FTTP in the future.

I think what holds up the deployment of FTTP technology in this country is money. But as we have seen from the non-BT Fibre companies, Hyperoptic and Gigaclear in particulay, that there is profit to be made when focusing solely on FTTP. As I've mentioned on this forum before, Openreach are majorly underfunded. In my opinion there needs to be a solution to increase funding, whether from BT being made to invest more in Openreach or that funding comes from somewhere else.

Anyways, thats my 2 pennies worth on the subject. :)
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Weaver

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 05:05:49 PM »

Good post, Bowdon.
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WWWombat

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 05:56:56 PM »

Mrs Weaver wants lots of bandwidth so she can get her work done while I watch streaming video, but out of respect for her needs, I don't do so.

The very definition of latent demand. You self-regulate - time-shifting activities - to work within the limitations. Once speed goes above some threshold, the limitation just disappears, and activities go on unregulated.

I wonder where the threshold lies? Obviously there is a variation across households, but I wonder just how much it varies. As a complete family, we felt limited when on 5Mbps, but didn't on 40Mbps, and don't give it a moment's thought on 80Mbps. With two adults just working (No TV streaming etc), we had been fine with ADSL 8Mbps download and a standalone phone (better upstream on FTTC has discarded the phone, and gone to VoIP). When alone, I have felt unhindered on 10Mbps.
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WWWombat

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 07:02:08 PM »

That's key stuff Bowden - the difference between the headline/marketing speed, and the actual speed. The highest "up to" figures sound nice, but it is the median and bottom-end figures that actually tell us more about where the nation's infrastructure sits.

The first point I'd like to make is that while upto 80 Mbps is advertised and generally offered in all fibre-enabled cab areas, quite a lot of lines aren't actually capable of receiving 80. Some arent capable of passing the 40. So though advertised in an area upto 80, the customer isn't going to order that if the predicted speeds will be under 40.

So in this situation, if taking a general look, it looks like the EU could have ordered 80 but ordered the 40 service instead. Then built on that general information it could be drawn that maybe the EU didn't need up to 80 speeds. Which as you can see in the example I've mentioned would have given off a wrong impression.
Yes - such choices do skew things, so you have to take account of these things.

The reverse can be true too, because ISPs don't just increase the download speed on higher-tier packages. For example, TalkTalk and Plusnet's current bottom tier only has 2Mbps upstream. If you want more upstream (and most lines can indeed get more), you'd need to upgrade to an 80Mbps downstream, even if you would otherwise be fine with a 40Mbps downstream.

Quote
I would be interested to see the average connection speed most customers get. I remember looking at one average speed chart and noticing that the average speed was below mine. I'm connected at 65 Mbps. So it must have been between 50 and 60. I can't remember exactly but it was on the thinkbroadband site.

So unless we can get data on the actual connection speed a line is capable of then we won't know the reason why he chose 40 instead of 80.
The average connection speed they actually get? Or the average they could get if they hadn't purchased a cheaper tier?

I've got a few charts that can help here; the first one (attached) is from Ofcom, detailing actual speed tiers for all technologies in 2014. It tells us that:
- the median actual FTTC speed is 40Mbps, through package choice. Almost 50% of FTTC lines had both chosen a 40Mbps package and were getting just under that.
- the median attainable FTTC speed may well be 60mbps (using simplistic extrapolation of the curves)
- the median cable speed was at the boundary between 30Mbps and 50Mbps packages (and can be assumed to be 50Mbps with current packages)

One of the BDUK projects (perhaps Staffordshire, or perhaps Shropshire) said that the average speed in their intervention area was now 50Mbps; if you assume they are talking about "attainable" values, and assume that rural BDUK lines tend to be longer than commercial ones, that BDUK 50Mbps figure could correlate with a national average of 60Mbps.

The second chart gives you the spread of D-side line lengths, which puts just shy of 50% of lines in the first two categories - ie less than 400m long - so a median length very close to 400m. Experience says that FTTC can get 80Mbps out to 400m ... but not with the higher crosstalk that comes with higher take-up. But actual speeds in the region of 60Mbps are not unlikely.

If BT were choosing to put vectoring in place, they could probably manage to get 100Mbps to 400m with ease - and probably to 500m, if the Eircom results can be extrapolated to the UK. Shame this isn't happening...

Quote
I think what holds up the deployment of FTTP technology in this country is money. But as we have seen from the non-BT Fibre companies, Hyperoptic and Gigaclear in particulay, that there is profit to be made when focusing solely on FTTP. As I've mentioned on this forum before, Openreach are majorly underfunded. In my opinion there needs to be a solution to increase funding, whether from BT being made to invest more in Openreach or that funding comes from somewhere else.

I think you're right, but I think there are a couple of facets that undermine the chances of investing more.

Openreach would be more likely to invest more per line if they could be sure of getting that investment back over time. Two years of £10 per month is all that Openreach can budget as income at the moment - or around £250. Ofcom won't allow for any longer minimum contracts; for Openreach to invest £1,000 per property, they need to be very sure that you will stay with them for much longer - and not suddenly swap to an LLU provider instead. The risk of not even returning the investment is too great if the period of return gets too far off into an unknown future. Risk is also added from competition from the likes of Sky - especially when they want to give away broadband aside their premium TV content - as does the shifting sands of Ofcom regulation.

I suspect the reason that we're seeing Openreach rollout in steps is because it lets them break the risk down into manageable steps, each with relatively limited time exposure.
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WWWombat

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 01:31:48 PM »

A quick follow-up to the last post...

I just dug out Gimp, and added a simple curved extrapolation of what FTTC speeds are perhaps attainable, if smaller packages didn't limit speeds.

Does anyone have any reason why this extrapolation isn't a fair one?
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gt94sss2

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 03:39:29 PM »

I would be interested to see the average connection speed most customers get. I remember looking at one average speed chart and noticing that the average speed was below mine. I'm connected at 65 Mbps. So it must have been between 50 and 60. I can't remember exactly but it was on the thinkbroadband site.

So unless we can get data on the actual connection speed a line is capable of then we won't know the reason why he chose 40 instead of 80.

I think TBB quoted around 55 as the average sync speed.

Next week Openreach are introducing a new 55/10 tier on fibre. It will be interesting to see how many people upgrade (or downgrade from 80/20) to that speed from their current package.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Fibre All The Way.
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 09:44:00 AM »

Thanks for the post, GT ............... it's a crying shame my own company haven't seen fit to tell we engineers this info.  :-X
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