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Author Topic: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection  (Read 17911 times)

huwwatkins

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2016, 11:26:19 PM »

No LLU im affraid.

https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SMBEN

Feels like stepping back in time after having FTTC for the last 4 years!
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NEXUS2345

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2016, 11:34:47 PM »

Yeah, looking at that your options are restricted to those who offer 20CN through BT Wholesale. According to BT Wholesale, there are currently no plans to upgrade your exchange within the next 3 months.
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kitz

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2016, 11:56:59 PM »

Could perhaps try Origin.   It doesn't say anything on their website that I can see,, regarding additional charges for 20CN exchanges.
They use various suppliers depending upon location.   It may be worth giving them a call or use their online chat just to check if they do or don't.   Support is 24/7.


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aesmith

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2016, 09:14:24 AM »

Keep us posted on what you find, I'm working on the assumption that I will have to leave A&A within at most the medium term, as like you there's no plan for our exchange to go 21CN.   

Quick check just now looks as if Origin not only don't charge a premium, but even preserve their special offer.  It's possible that if I'd hit the "order" button it would have changed I suppose.   When I checked them out at the start of the year their delivery outside Yorkshire was all provided by Plusnet, so I'm not sure what if any benefit they would provide over Plusnet direct.
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kitz

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2016, 04:03:52 PM »

To be honest, I understand why Zen are charging more for 20CN, as RevK of A&A said in a blog post that 20CN is something like almost 2x the cost per GB on BTWholesale.

I'm not so sure about that.  OFCOM did a review a couple of years ago and decided that LLU had basically reached saturation to all but the most remote exchanges which were viewed as unprofitable.   I think they finally saw sense that the LLU's didnt want to enter those exchanges, so they rejigged things so that BTw could provide cheaper 'alternative' access for the LLUs if they wanted to use BTw..  so capped the max amount that BTw could charge at those exchanges.

The pricing got all confusing for a while and even BTw muxed up Market A and Market B on one of their price lists.  I think RevK also got confused (I know I did!) and theres a discussion somewhere on these forums about it.  RevK went quiet as he later realised that those exchanges do indeed now qualify for discounts and caps on pricing.  Strictly speaking I cant see any reason why now the likes of Plusnet should be charging more.
iirc ejs found a document showing the WMBC charges, but here are the new WBC charges, which are just the same barring core transit as WBC only goes up to the Internodes.  Access and backhaul should be similar for both WBC and WBMC.

Link to WBC price list 01/10/22016

As long as the ISP is using IPSC (IPStream / DataStream are dead ducks).... I cant see why they are now charging more

Access Ports (DSLAM)

Standard End User Access Rental – ADSL (up to 8Mb)    1 Month     01/10/2016   Month      {market B} £5.88   {market A} £5.59
Standard End User Access Rental – ADSL2+ (up to 24Mb)    1 Month     01/01/2010   Month      {market B} £5.88   {market A} £5.88


Backhaul Access


AP national coverage (combined with IPsC CP Handover option) - Market A   12 Months   01/07/2014   Month   £6,532.00
AP national coverage (combined with IPsC CP Handover option) - Market B   12 Months   01/07/2014   Month   £20,968.00
Note - AP national coverage charges specific to a Market will be deducted where nil IPstream Connect or WBC end user accesses exist in that Market.      



Extension Paths (which is bandwidth) is same regardless of Market A or B.
Interconnect links are the same regardless if they are 20CN or 21CN


In fact just found this which shows the breakdown of the discounts now applied to Market A exchanges for those ISPs using IPSC, showing that Market A is cheaper.  - Link IPStream Connect Price List 01/10/2016

Quote
•   The per Mbit/s deduction will be based on the proportion of contracted bandwidth measured in Market A in total across all 10 nodes. Each month we will estimate the amount of IPstream Connect Market A bandwidth a CP is expected to use based on the peak actual usage data from two months prior and apply an adjustment to the invoice. Two months later a second adjustment will be made reflecting the actual Market A bandwidth consumed.

I can fully understand why years ago, they had to charge more.  But unless Im missing something surely it should no longer be the case?
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aesmith

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2016, 04:13:17 PM »

Isn't part of the problem that 20CN use separate back haul, so as the 20CN customer base shrinks it loses the economy of scale?  I wouldn't be surprised if it's not quite that simple, I'm going from the comments on Plusnet that their "new" network wouldn't affect 20CN customers as their traffic was carried separately anyway.

Rev K posted an update to his first 20CN post in which he commented that the high prices he originally was looking at applied to 20CN customer on exchanges where 21CN was available.  In the update he said (if I understand correctly) that there are rebates off these prices where customers are on 20CN only exchanges, but that he still felt something would need to be done by the end of this year.
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huwwatkins

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2016, 05:10:35 PM »

Hi
Thanks for the suggestion of Origin broadband. I found them the other day and they look cheap but a lot of the smaller providers online checkers can't deal with 20CN exchanges anymore and when you contact them they give you a higher price. I will look at them again though. Anyone have any experience with them?

I'm currently trying to online chat to them - not getting a reply!
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ejs

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2016, 05:56:29 PM »

@kitz

The problem is that the WBMC contracted bandwidth has to be allocated separately for the WBC and IPSC customers, and that the IPSC bandwidth is more expensive.

WBMC (WBC) Total Best Efforts Contracted Bandwidth: £48.55 per Mbit/s per month
WBMC (IPsC) Best Efforts Contracted Bandwidth charge (Market A): £63.56 per Mbit/s per month

So on WBMC Shared, 20CN bandwidth is about 30% more expensive than 21CN bandwidth.

The IPSC end user access rental is in the IPSC price list, £5.00 per month for Market A, possibly plus that £1.085 "IPstream Connect EU bandwidth charge" which I hadn't noticed before, which might make the EU access rental slightly more expensive than WBC ADSLx.

The RevK problem is that it becomes difficult to divide that £63.56 per month for 1 Mbit between an ever decreasing number of customers, plus people don't expect to pay £40+ or £60+ per month multiplied by their line speed in Mb.

An ISP using WBMC Shared wouldn't be paying for WBC elements separately like the AP national coverage or Extension Paths, nor paying for IPSC elements separately. They would be paying for MSILs and host links, and that per Mb per month figure for the contracted bandwidth. They don't pay the tens of thousands for a 10Gb host link and then get to have 10Gb of bandwidth for free. They'd pay the £78,000 annual rental for the 10Gb host link, then if they wanted to fully use it (up to the 90% allowed), it would be an additional 9000 x £48.55 = £436,950.00 for 9Gb/s of WBC bandwidth.

The real nonsense is that Plusnet continue to charge more for WBC ADSL and WBC FTTC end users outside of their "low cost area", because they figure those customers must be used to it by now.
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kitz

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2016, 12:24:41 PM »

WBMC Shared ISPs do not pay separately for the exchange backhaul nor MSILs.   BTw does all the management and buying the MSILs. - They take WBC pricing then bundle it as a package to resell to the ISP.   
IPSC is a consolidation product so that 20CN can join the 21CN network at the core nodes (MSILs) rather than having separate centrals.
Whilst the IPSC price list shows pricing for WBC, not all of them are applicable to shared WMBC, and primarily aimed at ISPs who use WBC.

With Shared WMBC, pricing consists of 3 main elements
- DSLAM port costs (Access)
- Rental cost of the Host Link (CP 1Gb/10Gb Connectivity)
- Bandwidth from the Core through the Host Link (Contracted Bandwidth)

This pricing structure is similar to the old centrals, but the difference being is the Host link can be comprised of both 20CN (IPSC) and 21CN traffic.   However bandwidth for the 2 elements are separate and as such the ISP is billed separately for IPSC bandwidth and 21CN bandwidth, adjusting the size of the segmentations as they see fit.

What they describe as 'Handover' is specific to WBC IPSC and the equivalent to an AP for WBC 21CN.  In the case of shared WMBC these will be bought and managed by BTw.  BTw also buys and manages the interconnect MSILs which can consist of both 21CN and IPSC traffic... and finally uses the MPLS core for traffic onwards to the ISP's PoP.

The "Host links" are basically either EAD (Ethernet Access) or WES (Wholesale Extension) depending on location and or the size of the pipe.... then obviously they have to pay for the bandwidth on top of that. I think with WES there's an additional charge based on the distance from the BT node.

-----------------------------

I'd also not noticed the separate £1.085 charge before.  It will be added on as the other price in the list is £4.51. {£4.51. + 1.085 = £5.59} which is what I quoted in my above post which was taken from the WBC price list
This could be something to do with OFCOM breaking down the charges so that certain elements didnt rise above 'x' amount per year.   From memory there was some mention that it was anticipated bandwidth requirements (connectivity to the DSLAM?) would rise and therefore costs in this area could rise more. Id have to find the OFCOM doc and read it though, which I dont particularly want to nor have time or patience. If you want to look in that area though Id start with OFCOM and them breaking down the access costs for the relevant markets and how much BT could raise charges in those 2 areas each year.

-------------------------------


Re pricing

Quote
WBMC (WBC) Total Best Efforts Contracted Bandwidth: £48.55 per Mbit/s per month
WBMC (IPsC) Best Efforts Contracted Bandwidth charge (Market A): £63.56 per Mbit/s per month

On reflection, Im not surprised it is a bit dearer.  We all know that the 21CN backhauls are larger and more efficient.  The old MiSP backhauls were never designed to cope with such high volumes of traffic.  21CN also uses QoS and its a known fact that 21CN is mostly what helped bring down the price of bandwidth from the days when it really did cost the ISPs £1 per GB on MiSP.

TBH I'd forgotten that the IPSC contracted bandwidth for WBMC shared was so much dearer [memory->seive for info over the past year] ... especially since the contracted bandwidth price list for shared WBMC isnt readily available on the internet.   For that reason I can now see why some ISP's are having to charge more.  Other prices like port costs may be cheaper... but it will be bandwidth that is keeping the price high.

That said, it does seem rather unfair that it appears to be only WBMC shared that are targetted with the higher IPSC pricing. 
Any ISP that purchases their own MSILs gets it at a far cheaper price (£40 per Mbit/s per month) plus the discounted handover link, which is exactly the same price as normal WBC 21CN backhaul transit. 
The other difference is an IPSC handover link is £6,532.00.... compared to £1528 for a WBC regional AP or £6532 for a WBC national AP.

Quote
The RevK problem is that it becomes difficult to divide that £63.56 per month for 1 Mbit between an ever decreasing number of customers, plus people don't expect to pay £40+ or £60+ per month multiplied by their line speed in Mb.

Yup.  It may not affect him yet, but it will do at some point.   With him being shared WBMC, he may be able to do some careful jigging around so that all 'national' IPSC links come through to just one host link. I'm not certain on that though, but at very least he should be able to make use of session steering to direct 20cn accounts to a specific gateway thus reducing the no of host links with IPSC traffic.

In the case of Plusnet, they are winding down the host links and moving to 'regional' dedicated, but it will be in plusnets interests in due time to retain IPSC as national and have all 20cn users coming through one link regardless of where in the UK they are.  I think even Dedicated can designate a national MSIL as they supposedly can mix and match what they like.. but since they already have hostlinks with national IPSC they may retain them where they already are, giving those best part of a £mill Junipers something to do. With purchasing their own MSILs, they could even take a separate national IPSC Handover from where ever they want and hook it into one of their MSILs.

Plusnet will also have an additional & separate BT for cost for Core Transit.  I dont know how much that will be and cant recall ever seeing a price list for it.  But Core transit is relatively cheap and no where near the costs involved in backhaul transit.   
WBC and Dedicated WBMC products are actually very similar.  The difference is that WBC uses a third party for Core Transit, whilst Dedicated uses the BT Core network.
For this element there should be no pricing differential between 20cn and 21cn, as 20cn will have already been handed over at the MSIL and before CORE.  This point though is irreverent at present as they are still using Shared WBMC for IPSC.

Quote
The real nonsense is that Plusnet continue to charge more for WBC ADSL and WBC FTTC end users outside of their "low cost area", because they figure those customers must be used to it by now.
Agreed.  Even more so in the case of FTTC which has to go over 21CN and will be via a headend exchange rather than the local exchange. They will not be incurring the higher bandwidth charges, nor being charged any more by BTw/Openreach. 
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ejs

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2016, 01:45:13 PM »

Yes, I've just found the £4.51 IPSC EU rental in a more recent IPSC price list. WBC never used to have different prices for ADSL and ADSL2+, but I suppose it's because IPSC gets withdrawn wherever WBC is, and the Ofcom controls might have something about customers not being made worse off when their exchange gets upgraded. But now we'll have to see if any ISPs are going to save a few pence per customer per month by putting all their customers with WBC available, but on long lines, onto ADSL1.
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aesmith

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2016, 03:49:05 PM »

I've finally had a reply from my MP's office, indicating that in terms of the exchanges I named within Aberdeenshire BT claims they still to upgrade them, but it will not be soon.  I assume no indication of timescale was given as none was passed on to me.

Do we have any idea or how many or which ISPs penalise or refuse to supply to 20CN?  I did some checks comparing prices to ourselves compared to our previous address which was on a 21CN high-cost exchange.    As far as I can see I've only found Zen charging extra, and EE refusing to supply.  The others I've checked are either the same price, or must be LLU or similar because they won't supply to either address.

I'm sure I saw comments on RevKs blog about ISPs abandoning 20CN, but was just wondering how many.
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kitz

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2016, 09:20:46 PM »

TalkTalk offloaded all their non LLU lines a year or so ago to Daisy.

Sky charge extra for non LLU lines.

Plusnet also charge extra for 20cn.

Not sure about Vodafone - Ive seen comments whereby they don't offer products from exchanges where they don't have a presence.
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Weaver

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2016, 05:18:57 PM »

I was on 20CN until the end of last year. As best I recall, I was charged double by Andrews & Arnold for office-hours / peak rate traffic as a 20CN user compared with 21CN or TalkTalk LLU. This is in the sense that I only got half as many MBs of download per charging unit on the traditional ‘units-based’ tariff that I am on.

However, it seems that AA have got rid of the higher 20CN charging rate, during the last year or so, not at all sure when. I believe there's now no difference now since I can't see any mention of 20CN in the relevant tariff calculator page.

So this is obviously the opposite message to that conveyed in RevK’s originally blog post, one which he semi-retracted / corrected - can't remember without re-reading it.
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aesmith

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2016, 05:24:56 PM »

Plusnet also charge extra for 20cn.
I hesitate to question, but the Plusnet higher pricing (their "non low cost areas") appears to apply on 21CN as well.
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kitz

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Re: ISP recommendations for a 20CN Market 1 connection
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2016, 08:37:39 PM »

Youre correct.  Im aware of this, but I was just trying to quickly answer re 20cn.

In additional to the Market Band, theres a pricing band of which exchanges are listed on each pricing band.   The list used to be available from BT.   Sometimes the lists are slow in updating but that doesnt excuse what PN are doing.
Jelv will probably remember and confirm this...  I shook PN up in about 2006/2007 as they were using an old list of exchanges.   I added the OFCOM list to my adslchecker and suddenly a LOT of people were asking why they were being wrongly priced.  It was one of those "PN forum on TBB exploded" moments and Mandy who at the time was one of their CS reps looked into it properly. I passed the database list on to Sam, and he too started showing it.  Within a few weeks people were being charged correctly.   Something like that needs to be done again.  However I dont have a recent list to check... there probably will still  be one somewhere on the BT website if someone wants to dig.

However, there is only one of me..   I struggle to do what I do and maintain the site these days.   
I have plenty of battle scars from my time in the usergroup.   Im afraid I just cant cover everything.   If someone wants an unpaid job... then theres several vacancies going spare. :)   

PS..  I'm not doing the sympathy vote.. just saying that I really do struggle to keep on top of stuff that no-one sees. There's lots of things I'd like to take up but physically I cant.   I've just tonight stumbled across something else new going on in the industry that is IMHO wrong and I'd love to find the time to take that up too.. but.......
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