Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]  (Read 4389 times)

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« on: November 05, 2015, 10:16:09 AM »

Quote
A secret database of citizens' personal lives and habits isn't explicitly spelled out in the UK's latest surveillance law. No, instead, it's described as a set of "request filters."

The term is buried in the draft Investigatory Powers Bill (IPB), which was introduced to Parliament on Wednesday. Turn to page 254 of the 299-page document [PDF], and you'll find it under "Clause 51: Filtering arrangements for obtaining data."

More sneaky attempts to get a Database going on the sly.  >:(

I hope this can be killed off, unless the 'Lords' has been neutered by then.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/04/ukgov_request_filter_in_snooping_bill/

Link to Bill https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473770/Draft_Investigatory_Powers_Bill.pdf
Logged

BritBrat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 04:09:27 PM »

And it will go through, who is going to stop this government who thinks it can do whatever it likes now that it has the mandate of the people?
Logged

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 06:16:43 PM »

And it will go through, who is going to stop this government who thinks it can do whatever it likes now that it has the mandate of the people?
God help us all !!
Privacy will be a thing of folk lore.
Now you will be profiled by what you do on the Internet (Sites you visit or articles you read) and decisions made about your potential actions based on that profile.
Political freedom will be next as 'non-supporters' of the current Govt will be identified and monitored. [Current as in whoever is in power]
The issue as always is not what the laws are intended to be used for, but rather what they can be 'misused' for.
Even if the current Govt does not get carried away, (small hope) future Govts will use what is there and push the boundaries as is always the case.
The Tories have established that you can get away with many far-reaching changes with less than a whimper from the great 'unwashed'.  :o :o :( :(
All govts will be tempted to continue in this vein.
Yet more freedoms lost for ever.
Almost makes me wish for Thatcher to come back ..... and bring some honesty & integrity back. <jk>   :D :D :D  :lol:


Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5347
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 07:14:57 PM »

I'm not condoning this legislation, it worries me intensely.    But we wonder whether  that government surveillance and databases may be less of a concern that private databases.   

Obviously, I'm thinking  of store cards.  And of Google, and Android phones, and anything else governed by Google.

But even beyond these I logged into LinkedIn today and, as always, it suggested people I 'might know'.  One of them I did know, she was my cousin.   We had no 1st connections in common, and 2nd connections either, so heaven knows how they figured it out.   But they did figure it out and they were right too, I suspect their databases are far more extensive than anything the UK Govt has in mind. :o

Two wrongs don't make a right, and none of that  justifies state surveillance.   But I'm a bit baffled why the country is all up in arms about one 'wrong' (the legislation) and yet we continue to sign up for store cards, to use Android phones and other Google services, and to use social networks?   :-\
Logged

renluop

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3326
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 08:35:29 PM »

Though it is worrying, I think our perception that it is maybe comes from the comfortable life we lead. The signs are all around that that life is at risk, yet we still hang on to the idea despite. Somehow reminds me of 75-80 years ago.

I would have hoped that back then, whatever the public and media demanded, our government had matters of security well in hand, suitable against the enemy communications abilities. I want the equivalent for today; it is better to lose some freedom, than lose it all.

What concerns me more, is how the UK seems to have withdrawal from the world symptoms.

But I know you will all disagree.
Logged

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 08:43:03 PM »

I'm not condoning this legislation, it worries me intensely.    But we wonder whether  that government surveillance and databases may be less of a concern that private databases.   

Obviously, I'm thinking  of store cards.  And of Google, and Android phones, and anything else governed by Google.

But even beyond these I logged into LinkedIn today and, as always, it suggested people I 'might know'.  One of them I did know, she was my cousin.   We had no 1st connections in common, and 2nd connections either, so heaven knows how they figured it out.   But they did figure it out and they were right too, I suspect their databases are far more extensive than anything the UK Govt has in mind. :o

Two wrongs don't make a right, and none of that  justifies state surveillance.   But I'm a bit baffled why the country is all up in arms about one 'wrong' (the legislation) and yet we continue to sign up for store cards, to use Android phones and other Google services, and to use social networks?   :-\
Signing up for Store Cards and Social networks etc are voluntary !! [Even Google if you can survive without Google Services]
If you cannot be bothered to understand what you are signing up to it is your own fault at the end of the day.
(Even though it is the responsibility of the Companies involved to make all this clear, it is also publicised elsewhere if you keep your eyes open.)
The IPB and similar is not under your control in any way.
You are not given any choice and it is very much a case of having to be told by people who care about such things rather than it being made clear by our Govts.

Also to add to the concern there is a report on the BBC Website that MI5 have been collecting Phone Data for 10 years.
Under existing rules apparently.
(All the rules are a bit loose to allow a bit of 'wriggle room' in the future, should anyone want to debate the actions taken. !!  ;D )
The new rules will aid and abet this and other new 'requirements' of our Secret Services/Govt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34729139   

As I have been trying to make clear there are things being done in the name of Security already that are not known widely, if at all.
Any vaguely defined new rules to enable more information to be collected and kept will be used/abused even more.

I believe that there are many covert long running operations against the citizens of the UK by our own services with the consent of our govts (past, present & future).
I appreciate that there are some things that cannot be widely known for security purposes but the same arguments can be used to protect operations that are NOT in the best interest of our society as a whole, in the long term.
The old mentality of 'for the greater good' justifying any short term bending/breaking of the law is not good enough.
If you now give ammunition to the operating entities & supporters of these things, to justify existing & future intrusions into everyone privacy with 'hidden' profiling of our citizens who are doing NO wrong, then you are opening a very real Pandora's Box.

The danger is as History shows the 'Unintended Consequences' of such changes to the rights/privacy of the UK populace.

   
Logged

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2015, 08:48:22 PM »

... it is better to lose some freedom, than lose it all.

Please explain the rational of 'lose it all' ?

I would prefer not to trade off *any* freedoms as they do tend NOT to come back !!

Do remember the famous quote of Benjamin Franklin ...
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5347
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2015, 09:14:07 PM »

Signing up for Store Cards and Social networks etc are voluntary !! [Even Google if you can survive without Google Services]

Governments are also voluntary inasmuch as we are a democracy, and have an election every five years.   You may or may not have voted for the current government, as may I.   But they were voted in by a convincing majority and so, in the spirit of democracy, we really shouldn't cry 'foul play' just because they do something we do not like. 

As for Google, are they really voluntary?   Is there any other search engine that is so reliable and if so, are their T&Cs any less draconian?   Twenty years ago I didn't need a search engine.  If I wanted to know how something worked I'd go to the bookshop and buy a book.   But the high street book shops have all gone, so what real alternative is there to search engines, and their databases?
Logged

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2015, 10:08:05 PM »

Signing up for Store Cards and Social networks etc are voluntary !! [Even Google if you can survive without Google Services]

Governments are also voluntary inasmuch as we are a democracy, and have an election every five years.   You may or may not have voted for the current government, as may I.   But they were voted in by a convincing majority and so, in the spirit of democracy, we really shouldn't cry 'foul play' just because they do something we do not like. 

As for Google, are they really voluntary?   Is there any other search engine that is so reliable and if so, are their T&Cs any less draconian?   Twenty years ago I didn't need a search engine.  If I wanted to know how something worked I'd go to the bookshop and buy a book.   But the high street book shops have all gone, so what real alternative is there to search engines, and their databases?
Govts are voluntary, sort of.
(We tend to vote for the lesser evil !!. When we attempted to vote to say 'None of the above' last time they contrived a coalition that no-one voted for, which satisfied no-one in the end!!)
Does that mean that once elected we have no say in what is right and that the elected Govt can pick and choose what they do out of their manifesto with impunity because the voters do not matter anymore.
Remember the manifesto is the basis many would have made their decision re: casting of the vote.
Also if the govt elected is doing something that is bad for all the 'voters' including the non-voters and opposition voters it cannot be raised as a point because the elected party now can change the rules as they see fit without any right for dissent ?
In your definition the 'winning' party rules for the benefit of the voters who supported it ONLY. (Or at least they have no basis for dissent having supported the manifesto)
(Although many will say this is how it works in reality, it is not how it is supposed to work in practice.)

The manifesto made noises about giving the security services the legislation they needed to do their job BUT did not say that would be at the cost of our freedom of speech, in any of its forms.
Neither did it say that the legislation would enable the profiling of people on the basis of this information regardless of being guilty of a crime.
An object example of 'Guilty until proved innocent' !!

That does not appear to be democratic in my understanding of the word.

Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5347
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2015, 10:24:00 PM »

Interesting views.

At this point, my opinions having been stated and while I stand by them, rather than repeat myself in an endless loop I shall take a back seat and see what other opinions may emerge...? :)
Logged

renluop

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3326
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 11:27:50 PM »

... it is better to lose some freedom, than lose it all.

Please explain the rational of 'lose it all' ?

I would prefer not to trade off *any* freedoms as they do tend NOT to come back !!

Do remember the famous quote of Benjamin Franklin ...
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

ISTM that Franklin could be possibly right in an ideal world, where his principle could be applied successfully, But that world does not exist. Therefore if we will not be willing to accept some inconveniences, things we do not like, we shall at greater risk of losing much more at the hands of those, who hate our culture and more. Remember there are many, like my father, who forewent  freedoms to defeat a real evil. Thank God they did, else we may would not have the freedom we enjoy.

Therefore I see no need to explain my rational rationale.
Logged

Jaggies

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 12:08:27 AM »

(Bearing in mind the time of year...)

Guido Fawkes - the only man to enter the Houses of Parliament with honest intentions...
Logged

AArdvark

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1008
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 12:46:00 AM »

... it is better to lose some freedom, than lose it all.

Please explain the rational of 'lose it all' ?

I would prefer not to trade off *any* freedoms as they do tend NOT to come back !!

Do remember the famous quote of Benjamin Franklin ...
“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

ISTM that Franklin could be possibly right in an ideal world, where his principle could be applied successfully, But that world does not exist. Therefore if we will not be willing to accept some inconveniences, things we do not like, we shall at greater risk of losing much more at the hands of those, who hate our culture and more. Remember there are many, like my father, who forewent  freedoms to defeat a real evil. Thank God they did, else we may would not have the freedom we enjoy.

Therefore I see no need to explain my rational rationale.
Apologies for the spelling mistake or rather my inability to type which gives me auto correct instead.  :D

I appreciate the sacrifices made by whole generations during the World Wars, including 'my father' during WW2, BUT it is not a fair comparison.
The words of war are used to bring about such comparisons which is to serve a purpose of pushing us towards the loss of our freedoms.
Considering how hard fought for those freedoms were, I would fight a little harder before freely giving them up. 
The people we are surrendering them too are not fit to wipe the shoes of the people who fought during the World Wars and stand no comparison to the politicians of the day either.
If the vague and generic laws could be shown to be effective and there was any trust that they would be repealed when not needed I would be happier.
Unfortunately, I trust the Politicians and the Security Services to only perpetuate the apparent need indefinitely as it is such a handy way to keep all possible dissenters/undesirables in their place.
Who defines who are the undesirables ?
There are many groups in this country who have been classified as such by govts in the past who are now accepted or (more truthfully) at least tolerated members of our society.
Such powers have the ability to be misused and past revelations have shown that misuse of power is not uncommon even here in the UK.

It is very easy to accept such loss of freedom if they will not affect you. That is the implied 'Sales Pitch'.
Right now the safe profile is as follows:
You are white , not Muslim, not a migrant, do not have a 'foreign name' that flags you as suspect, do not communicate with people in certain countries, etc, etc and live in an area where the majority is just like you.

Tomorrow who knows what the safe profile will be.

There are many people who will be 'Potentially Guilty' by virtue of their birth and no more.
This will be yet another set of events that is pushing people towards the groups we are trying to fight.
It will provide ammunition to incite further recruitment of the disillusioned and vulnerable.

BTW, I do not match the 'At risk' profile and neither to I match the 'Safe profile' but I can appreciate the concerns of many that they are being treated as 'Guilty' and having to prove their innocence at all times.

Finally, my reason for asking for your rationale (spelt correctly) is that I cannot see any way we can lose 'all our freedoms' unless we give them away freely of our own volition.
There is no external force that can take them away but they can be given away very easily.
The first step is to define a threat that cannot be dealt with in any way other than taking something from you.
You then naturally trust your govt and give them away.
Logged

BritBrat

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2016, 06:36:59 PM »

I had to laugh at this:

Quote
How about this little gem: "Data includes any information that is not data." The Home Secretary, Theresa May, confirmed that this wicked brain teaser is not a typo but she was unable to shed any light on what it really means.


Source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/11/strasburger-ip-bill-rewritten
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5347
Re: UK govt sneaks citizen database into IPB Bill [The Register]
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2016, 09:51:01 PM »

I had to laugh at this:

Quote
How about this little gem: "Data includes any information that is not data." The Home Secretary, Theresa May, confirmed that this wicked brain teaser is not a typo but she was unable to shed any light on what it really means.


Source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2016-02/11/strasburger-ip-bill-rewritten

In pretty much any comms protocol, packet format is generally broken up into headers and payload.  The headers contain addresses, and other stuff, routing information or checksums. The headers are generally followed by a payload often referred to as the 'data'.  TCP/IP protocols even define the 'data' in that way, quite explicitly calling that part of the packet the  'data'.

May's comment then, allowing for the fact she is probably not a protocol engineer, would appear to be entirely consistent with Govt's stated aim of collecting only so-called metadata.  That would come from the headers and include the addresses, but not the payload (or 'data').   :)

I am surprised that 'wired' editors did not know that - or if they did, why didn't they explain it before publishing?  :-\

PS:  Oops. Just noticed I'd said I'd take a back seat on this one.  That was over three months ago and I'd forgot I said it, have trouble remembering last week let alone last November.  Will do my best to shut up this time.    :blush:

edit:  added PS
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 10:22:31 PM by sevenlayermuddle »
Logged