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Author Topic: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts  (Read 9394 times)

Ronski

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2015, 06:20:32 AM »

That's known as a SCP (secondary connection point)  IIRC.

Of course the question no one has asked is how far are you from the main  cabinet? The estimates also appear to be to the DP (distribution point),  so you have a long drop wire?

I was the first on my cabinet and my estimate was about 13 higher than what I got, not a huge difference like yours but it was still a shock, as I'm relatively close to my cab at 450 meters.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 07:19:29 AM »

You are correct
It goes from the fibre cab to the main cab and then via  the lead sheathed multicore to the subsidiary cab
Our rural area consists of a number of groups of houses fed from a more or less central cab (No 20) and in my case there is a subsidiary cab (No 20/1) which looks a bit like this except it is buried in the hedge


I'm genuinely surprised that the lead cable is still in-situ ??

We have an 'Uplift Process' (Which was in place when I started at BT, over 30yrs ago), called A1024. Basically the engineer HAS to submit an A1024 for remedial work to be carried out on defective plant, during the course of their normal duties. Failure to do so means they will be tortured by the auditor, and that's only partially tongue-in-cheek !!  ;)

I'm pretty certain, knowing the issues with lead cables, that this particular length will have had an A1024 submitted donkeys years ago ?? I wonder if a separate PETC cable (modern stuff) has been run in parallel with the original, and EU's get swopped out as and when required ?? 

   
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Oldjim

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 09:12:08 AM »

@Ronski
800 metres cable length from the main cab to the house
@Blacksheep
Lead sheathed was what the BT engineer said when he was trying to sort out my neighbours line (he eventually found one good pair free and moved his speeds up to near mine from about 36Mb/s)
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Jim
Plusnet

Ronski

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2015, 10:11:16 AM »

For 800 meters you're doing very well, my speeds at 450 meters currently are 47/6, best they've been is 50/12, worst is 38 down and around 6 up. My line for the distance is lower than most though.

The estimate always seems to follow the actual sync speed.
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skwark

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2015, 12:30:15 PM »

Just a question here lets say the line has crosstalk and you do many BT line speed tests you will notice in the second stage the information is being uploaded to the server, Is that information being used as the estimate for that line over time ?

I'd say so - I have/had an issue with my line and ran that test a few times, each time the estimate was lowered as I believe it's taking an average from the uploaded results. If not many people are running that test on your circuit then the change will be more evident, especially as you tend to only run that when there's an issue.

I had a min. download speed "guarantee" on my line when I placed the order, but BT has their own definition of guarantee, as when I reported the issue with my line they simply changed the minimum "guarantee" speed to what I was getting after running that test several times at their request. Genius.
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AArdvark

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2015, 09:04:50 PM »

Just a question here lets say the line has crosstalk and you do many BT line speed tests you will notice in the second stage the information is being uploaded to the server, Is that information being used as the estimate for that line over time ?

I'd say so - I have/had an issue with my line and ran that test a few times, each time the estimate was lowered as I believe it's taking an average from the uploaded results. If not many people are running that test on your circuit then the change will be more evident, especially as you tend to only run that when there's an issue.

I had a min. download speed "guarantee" on my line when I placed the order, but BT has their own definition of guarantee, as when I reported the issue with my line they simply changed the minimum "guarantee" speed to what I was getting after running that test several times at their request. Genius.

 :lol:
Well done you have won the Kewpie Doll for working out how it works !!  :D :D ;)
That is how it worked for me, as well, when a line fault was 'fixed'.  ;D ;D
(I'm not bitter I always grind my teeth when I am happy!!  :lol: )

The Line estimates are just that  ....... when the line performs 'worse' and there are no 'problems' detected on the line the estimate is adjusted to match reality.
Some people get better than estimates others get worse !!
Not good if you lose out but that it how it goes.  :(
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ip75

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2015, 10:37:45 PM »

For balance, it works the other way too. My original estimate was 41, but I synced at 80. About 3 weeks afterwards the BTW estimate was changed to 80.
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renluop

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2015, 11:27:57 PM »

All this "fiddling" with estimates, be they for ADSL or VDSL, would be more honestly dealt with, were the local loop infrastructures in good condition. Why should my close neighbour get half or double speed than I? That seems unfair service.

I could imagine BT management solution to that  would be to ****** up my line to make it match next door's! ::)
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2015, 11:45:37 PM »

As we've said before, Ronski's line is not 450 metres, it's more like 850.
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burakkucat

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2015, 12:45:22 AM »

When a circuit length is being discussed I think it is useful to think of both the physical length and also the electrical length. Depending upon the condition of the pair, the joints, the metal of which the wire is constructed, etc, the latter can be significantly greater than the former.

The physical length can be measured, either when the cable is installed or by subsequent processes which include estimations of the extra length in footway joint boxes, up/down the height of any pole, etc. Bald_Eagle1 has first hand, practical experience of such quantification. The end result is a figure in metres, yards, kilometres or miles which can be easily compared with another circuit.

The electrical length is far more difficult to quantify. We have been doing so, somewhat crudely, for many years . . . we look at the attenuation, in decibels, for both downstream and upstream. The problem is that there is no hard and fast rule how those to figures should be obtained. With a circuit that carries a VDSL2 service we can (with suitable hardware and software manipulation) look at (say) a Hlog plot. We all, probably, are aware of what a Hlog plot looks like, for both circuits that are generally considered to be good and those that are deemed to be bad. The visual representation that we see when considering a Hlog plot could be regarded as yet another "handle" on the electrical length of a circuit. Consider the area under the curve. The smaller the area under the curve, the greater the electrical length of the circuit. The greater the area under the curve, the smaller the electrical length of the circuit. I.e. The area under the curve of a circuit's Hlog plot is inversely proportional to the circuit's electrical length.

My apologies for the above nebulous caterwauling. I have had numerous ideas on the subject going back over a number of years. The problem is having a sufficiently large set of data to use as experimental input. Some of you may remember that I asked for specific data from VDSL2 circuits and I was gifted with fifteen sets of data. Manipulation and munging of those data sets did not produce any usable result. My thought then was that (1) the data set was too small (2) the manipulation of the data was incorrect. Since that time I have occasionally thought about what information could be deduced with a sufficiently large data set that was manipulated in other ways. I currently have scribblings on a few sheets of A4 paper as thoughts come (& go) . . .  ???
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loonylion

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2015, 03:36:21 AM »

I have had numerous ideas on the subject going back over a number of years. The problem is having a sufficiently large set of data to use as experimental input. Some of you may remember that I asked for specific data from VDSL2 circuits and I was gifted with fifteen sets of data. Manipulation and munging of those data sets did not produce any usable result. My thought then was that (1) the data set was too small (2) the manipulation of the data was incorrect. Since that time I have occasionally thought about what information could be deduced with a sufficiently large data set that was manipulated in other ways. I currently have scribblings on a few sheets of A4 paper as thoughts come (& go) . . .  ???

Perhaps Tony could assist you with obtaining a large enough dataset?
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Ronski

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2015, 06:31:50 AM »

As we've said before, Ronski's line is not 450 metres, it's more like 850.
So you know where I live and how long my line, I think not!  It is 450 meters,  it has been confirmed by a BT engineer. Oh, and I'm pretty sure you haven't said, and no one else has ever said it is any where near 850 meters, so before you go stating things I suggest you get your facts correct! 

Or was that another joke?
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mikelj

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BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2015, 12:08:40 PM »

I wondering if anyone could provide some insight into my estimated DS rate.

Using the same checker as the OP mine originally was 74-odd (over a year ago just as Infinity became available in my area). This I can understand, as Openreach would have no actual real world data to base the figure on.

Up until G.INP Mk 1 was rolled out my DS HIGH I could expect was 59.4; I actually synced around 65.

However since G.INP Mk1 my DS has been artificially capped at 60 (can be determined from my Billion router stats) and the Broadband Checker states DS HIGH of 60.

So it appears a little self-prophesying to me, 'you'll achieve 60 as we're capping you at 60'.

So I'm wondering why I'm capped at 60 when my SNRM is around 8.5dB and I average around 2ES a day.



Mike
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Dray

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2015, 12:11:49 PM »

Are your stats available on MDWS?
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mikelj

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Re: BT Openreach are moving the goalposts
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2015, 01:11:11 PM »


Are your stats available on MDWS?

Sorry, no. Mac only household I'm afraid.


Mike
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