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Author Topic: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes  (Read 37788 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2015, 08:33:14 PM »

Disagree we will.  :)

"To me over provisioning is common sense as its inevitable at some point it will be likely needed, whether its 1 month or 10 years in the future."

There is absolutely no proof, no metric, no gauge no nothing .... that the originally installed 96 ports will be bought up and further provisioning will be necessary.
Yes, there are obviously going to be instances where the Cabs go bust pretty quick ...... yes, there may be instances where extra civils are required to complete the capacity problem. But .... and this is what it's ALL about, them that are actually in the know, who have all the figures, facts and projections to hand ..... have deemed it un-business like to over-provision. Especially with G.fast being talked about way back when the first FTTC Cabs were being introduced.

I'm not a businessman, my wife does our finances and she gives me pocket-money for a pint ..... but I can get my head around why they've done what they've done here, I would call it simple economics.

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NewtronStar

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2015, 08:47:30 PM »

I guess it's like renting a car for the day and all you are going to do is 50 miles during that day, there is no point in filling up the tank to full as you won't receive the benefit and you will out of pocket pure an simple economics  :)
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Oldjim

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2015, 09:05:02 PM »

As an outsider it appears to me that if when adding a second 100 pair cable all you need to do is feed the cable down the existing duct from the ADSL cab to the fibre cab then the extra cost of doing it later instead of "just in case" seems to be minuscule as the bulk of the work and cost will be adding a new card or cards to the fibre cab and connecting the cable to them
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Jim
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2015, 09:11:52 PM »

^^^^^

***** Intellect alert ****** Intellect alert ******* please leave the building immediately.  :)
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AArdvark

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2015, 09:39:57 PM »

^^^^^

***** Intellect alert ****** Intellect alert ******* please leave the building immediately.  :)
:lol: :lol:
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2015, 10:41:02 AM »

I guess it's like renting a car for the day and all you are going to do is 50 miles during that day, there is no point in filling up the tank to full as you won't receive the benefit and you will out of pocket pure an simple economics  :)

That is no way the same comparison newt.

As that situation you know for sure you wont use it, whilst predicting demand for a unreleased product is entirely different.

e.g. my area was late to be activated for FTTC, the reason was BT thought there was no demand, then when it was activated with only a single vdsl card, it was sold out within 6 weeks.  One of the many cases of BT under estimating demand.  Now there is 2 cabinets the demand was that high.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2015, 10:44:53 AM »

As an outsider it appears to me that if when adding a second 100 pair cable all you need to do is feed the cable down the existing duct from the ADSL cab to the fibre cab then the extra cost of doing it later instead of "just in case" seems to be minuscule as the bulk of the work and cost will be adding a new card or cards to the fibre cab and connecting the cable to them

I can tell you it costs £1600 to install a single card, if 2 are installed at the same time it costs £1785, if the 2 are installed separately the total cost is circa £3000.

Which makes more sense?
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guest

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2015, 10:53:27 AM »

As an outsider it appears to me that if when adding a second 100 pair cable all you need to do is feed the cable down the existing duct from the ADSL cab to the fibre cab then the extra cost of doing it later instead of "just in case" seems to be minuscule as the bulk of the work and cost will be adding a new card or cards to the fibre cab and connecting the cable to them

I can tell you it costs £1600 to install a single card, if 2 are installed at the same time it costs £1785, if the 2 are installed separately the total cost is circa £3000.

Which makes more sense?

Makes no odds to BT as the taxpayer will be paying for it anyway...
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Ronski

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2015, 03:30:32 PM »

Shouldn't the real argument be why the extra ducts aren't installed? Ducting is cheap and surely sufficient ducts could be put in for not a lot of extra cost at the initial build?

That would only require groundworks once, and the more expensive copper cables could be pulled through when required.

BS. I work in the transport game, managing a commercial workshop and dealing with an international company, many many times I've seen their accountants insist on doing things one way because it's cheaper, but in the long run it works out more expensive, or certainly looks that way. Bean counters are not always right.

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Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 550/52  ;D

Black Sheep

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2015, 05:13:41 PM »

Shouldn't the real argument be why the extra ducts aren't installed? Ducting is cheap and surely sufficient ducts could be put in for not a lot of extra cost at the initial build?

That would only require groundworks once, and the more expensive copper cables could be pulled through when required.

BS. I work in the transport game, managing a commercial workshop and dealing with an international company, many many times I've seen their accountants insist on doing things one way because it's cheaper, but in the long run it works out more expensive, or certainly looks that way. Bean counters are not always right.

That's what happens now, Ron ............ large ducts are put in place and pulling in new cables is a piece of p1ss. See further up this thread about how I could do it as a singleton worker.

I'm not saying accountants always get it right. But each and every scenario presented here will be totally different to the large-scale roll-out of FTTC development. There is no comparative analogy.
However, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time and boring a glass eye to sleep ........ the workshop that put together the FTTC package as it is, got it as right as any business could do with regard to the provisioning of copper cable.

You give the impression you manage your line-of-work in some way, shape or form ............... I ill ask you one simple question.

Would you, (given there are circa 36,000 Cabinets in the UK), give the order to install 4x100pr cables (192 ports) on each job, or the way it is done now and install 2x100pr cables (96 ports) on each job. You have to make this decision as MD based on the fact you have no idea whatsoever of what the contractual take-up of the product will be ?? There may be just 1 EU that upgrades, there may be 20 ?? You just do not know ??

I'll give you a little more intel to help make a decision ...... as mooted above, pulling in extra cables and terminating them is a 2-day job for one man. Easy street.
From my own experience, and any other OR engineer looking in may wish to add to this, I have probably only witnessed 5-10% of Cabs on my patch requiring relief work carrying out.

So do you ............. A) Spend a fortune on extra Copper cable that has a high probability of never being used, or B) Put new Copper in as and when firm orders are in place.

I'm now sick to death (Not with you Ron at all  :)) of giving this incredibly simple scenario to people with more than announce of intelligence. It is not what would need the recommendation of an accountant IMHO, it is a very, very simple costing exercise that my dog could do.  ;) ;D
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licquorice

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2015, 05:29:27 PM »

But you have not given any costings. You also keep referring to providing 2x100pr as opposed to 1x100pr. My original argument was for 1x200pr as opposed to 1x100pr. I really can't see that the difference in price between 100pr and 200pr is anything but tiny, making the cable is a far higher proportion of the cost rather than the amount of copper used. Obviously 2x100pr is going to be twice the price of 1x 100pr. I bet you would never wire your house with one pair cable, you would always use at least 4 pair just in case.
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NewtronStar

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2015, 05:49:15 PM »

As that situation you know for sure you wont use it, whilst predicting demand for a unreleased product is entirely different.

If you take a FTTC cabinet that is 600 meters from my location pity i'm not connected to it but thats life, anyway it has been active for 3 years and now there is a big sticker on it saying fibre broadband is here so that suggests a low uptake on this cabinet and OR is having to promote it because they are losing money on this investment  :(
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2015, 05:49:27 PM »

But you have not given any costings. You also keep referring to providing 2x100pr as opposed to 1x100pr. My original argument was for 1x200pr as opposed to 1x100pr. I really can't see that the difference in price between 100pr and 200pr is anything but tiny, making the cable is a far higher proportion of the cost rather than the amount of copper used. Obviously 2x100pr is going to be twice the price of 1x 100pr. I bet you would never wire your house with one pair cable, you would always use at least 4 pair just in case.

 :wall: :wall: I haven't given costings because I don't have any idea of the prices. What I do know, and you seem to struggle with this, is that WHATEVER the price ..... more copper pairs will equal more money. Money that has a high probability of never seeing a return on it !!!

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licquorice

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2015, 06:19:46 PM »

I don't struggle at all, if the costing are great, then yes, I will go along with your argument. However, if (as I suspect)  the difference is only pence, it is a gamble worth taking for next to nothing. Bean counters only look as far as today, they don't even look at tomorrow, let alone any further. Until I see absolute figures I will still maintain my method is cheaper in the long run.  ;)  If you haven't got any idea of the pricings, how can you argue your case any more than I can argue mine. You might even find that 200pr cable is actually cheaper as there is more demand for it. Things are not as simple as you would like us to believe.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT Wholesale & Openreach Where & When changes
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2015, 06:32:09 PM »

I can only back up my argument by the fact that Openreach ( Part of a FTSE100 company), which make MASSIVE profits year-on-year, have decided that the way it's done is the most cost-effective. What makes you think you know better than their experts in the field ?? Rather strange if you ask me.  ???

Now if I were to present my case, and you your case to Lord Sugar ..... I can tell you here and now, it would be you getting fired !!  :shoot:
It really is as simple as I am making out.  ;) ;D ............... it has to be as it's what is happening.

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