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[GigabitEthernet]

Openreach are fundamentally failing to do their job, that is shown by the horribly long wait times for new line installations, the lack of engineers caring about the job they do, engineers taking too long to fix a fault.

Openreach need to be split off and properly regulated as under BT they are doing a very poor job.

[NewtronStar]

Openreach need to be split off and properly regulated as under BT they are doing a very poor job.

If that was ever to happen you could see Openreach morphing into Kellys Networks due to lack of funding needed to keep the UK Phone and Broadband infrastructure at reasonable working level.

I'm happy with the status quo as it is but if your goodself has a better alternative UK networking structure that won't massively increase ISP fee's onto the end-user i am all ear's.

[jid]

The way I See this its all about funding. Openreach are getting slagged off in England for lack of roll out etc etc.

I live in Wales, and here we have Superfast Cymru - which is funded heavily by the Welsh government, they're aiming for the biggest coverage they can, and recently they've rolled out FTTC to some quite remote towns and villages high up in the valleys - quite a challenge but its been done.

This whole debate about speed is related to money - if there's the investment, Openreach can basically reach anywhere (pardon the pun). They fill the gap for the cabinets and exchanges that BT don't roll out FTTC or FTTP to. They've also funded connections of those who are Exchange only lines.

It's a clever way of providing funding, and one of the few things the Welsh government have actually got right. So I think it's not necessarily Openreach that are to blame, its the funding available.

[Chrysalis]

I think most of the industry agrees with Alec openreach standards are pretty bad.  Anyone who isnt a openreach employee who disagrees I only suggest to check how well companies perform over sea's e.g. in europe its not uncommon to get an installation within 24 hours and a same day callout for faults (without premium fees).

This leaves two questions.

1 - Would splitting of openreach improve their performance?
2 - Is this artifical split of BT divisions working as it was designed?

The two questions are tied to each other because if #2 is no then it should mean #1 has a big case for yes.

My belief is that its clear openreach does what BT retail wants, e.g. when BT retail decided it needs to provide higher speeds than adsl2+ provides, by coincidence openreach decides to rollout FTTC.  As to the sports rights spending and openreach investment levels are there any affects?  It doesnt seem like this an obvious affect, but it is logical to conclude that if BT are spending billions on sports rights then it affects openreach's spending power, as the credit line is for the whole BT group, openreach is just a division not a company in itself.  We have to remember the sandbox is artifical from ofcom, These are still the same company.

Certain events only highlight this.

e.g. BT retail are known to write off high FTTPoD costs, only they can do this because to them its not a real cost its only a paper cost given they the same company as openreach, been able to write off those sort of costs gives them an advantage over competitor isp's such as sky and talktalk.  Likewise BT retail will much more willingly expedite orders for the same reason, its just a paper cost.

I am in the pro split off court, I think the industry will benefit if openreach is no longer part of the BT group.

[Chrysalis]

Openreach need to be split off and properly regulated as under BT they are doing a very poor job.

If that was ever to happen you could see Openreach morphing into Kellys Networks due to lack of funding needed to keep the UK Phone and Broadband infrastructure at reasonable working level.

I'm happy with the status quo as it is but if your goodself has a better alternative UK networking structure that won't massively increase ISP fee's onto the end-user i am all ear's.

I suggest you check openreach's financials, they make a decent profit.

page 48 http://www.btplc.com/Sharesandperformance/Annualreportandreview/pdf/2014_BT_Annual_Report.pdf

Code: [Select]

Financial performance
Year ended
31 March 2014 £m 2013a £m 2012a £m
Revenue 5,061 5,115 5,187
Operating costs 2,460 2,473 2,569
EBITDA 2,601 2,642 2,618
Depreciation and amortisation 1,406 1,428 1,416
Operating pro􀆬t 1,195 1,214 1,202
Capital expenditure 1,049 1,144 1,075
Operating cash 􀆮ow 1,492 1,475 1,514

[GigabitEthernet]

The other thing is that is no parity between engineers at Openreach. Some are well trained, others aren't. The number I've met who don't have a clue what they're talking about is ridiculous.

The whole company needs to be completely reformed, I believe it should be far more consumer oriented, rather than being kept behind closed doors essentially.

[Chrysalis]

Well this site I am hoping has not turned into a BT/openreach fan site, things seem to have changed a lot in the past couple of weeks, if I do get banned then goodbye everyone.

and yes I agree with your most recent comment as well Alec.

The problem is I am not sure if they badly trained or they just "playing dumb".  They are under pressure to not fix faults that are not severe to save openreach money.  So if they want to avoid doing work on a line they will say what they feel they need to say to do that. e.g. I have had an engineer turn up and tell me he isnt trained in broadband and he was sent out in error, then the next week he turned up again as a broadband engineer looking a bit embarrassed.

[GigabitEthernet]

It seems as of late if you don't like Openreach, you get shut down rather than being allowed to state your opinion.

I think the majority of people don't like Openreach.

[roseway]

Come on you two. You know perfectly well that this forum is not an Openreach fan site, and you don't get shut up for stating your opinion. The idea is frankly insulting.

What we object to is the way that every mention of Openreach in a thread like this is used as an opportunity to bash them. This often derails the original subject which was to inform us of something happening in the organisation. I particularly object to the cynical one-liners which say in various ways "Openreach is rubbish" every time a company announcement is made. It's not surprising that Openreach employees wonder why they bother to provide information to us.

So express your opinions by all means, but don't derail informative threads by using them as an excuse for another bash. If you think that Openreach should be sold off (for example) then why not start a separate thread on that subject so there can be a proper focused debate on the subject.

[loonylion]

The problem is I am not sure if they badly trained or they just "playing dumb".  They are under pressure to not fix faults that are not severe to save openreach money.  So if they want to avoid doing work on a line they will say what they feel they need to say to do that. e.g. I have had an engineer turn up and tell me he isnt trained in broadband and he was sent out in error, then the next week he turned up again as a broadband engineer looking a bit embarrassed.

could be a combination. I've seen BS say on several occasions that the training for new hires isn't really up to par, and also the job scheduling being rather unforgiving, which could well lead to excuses being made to get off site quickly if it looks to be more than a simple fault.

IMO technical companies like openreach should be mostly run by technical people, not beancounters.

[Weaver]

Speaking as someone who has a love hate relationship with Openreach and BT Group in general, I went through a period of despising BT after the Phorm scandal. Nothing to do with the Openreach division.

But it's boring, unnecessary and usually off-topic hearing repeated one-liners that amount to "BT is rubbish" over and over again. We get it. That doesn't make anyone necessarily pro-BT.

[guest]

I don't like BT Group - I think that the majority of BT Group companies live off Openreach like a leech/tick.

I believe Openreach is run as a cash cow - Liv Garfield ran it into the ground & I have no doubt she'll do the same with Severn Trent.

I think that were Openreach floated off then I believe their revenues would go through the roof - much the same as has happened with Chorus in New Zealand.

Chorus was pretty much Openreach when attached to the retail incumbent - doing the bare minimum to keep the regulator at bay while maintaining the monopoly - but now they're actually talking to end-users as their customers!

A mate of mine (lives way the hell out of anywhere, volcano a couple of miles away, tremors every day for 20 years etc) has had a visit from them recently as he said he didn't want fibre (proper fibre) due to the install cost. Basically its a 500m long "drive" to his house from the road, he has diggers/etc so he wasn't going to pay the 22,000NZD to get a trench dug etc, which was what was quoted before the split. Now there's some common sense - he digs/fills the trench, Chorus lay the ducting/fibre & the total cost to him is 800NZD. Job done & everyone's happy. Edit - of course he's not since the Singapore cable from NZ/Aus has been broken again. Nightmare or what - you get fibre then the whole of Oceania goes tits up again

[Black Sheep]

Your analogy happens every single day within BTOR.

We have a ceiling on provisioning costs, (I genuinely cant think what it is, but somewhere around the £2K mark springs to mind ??), anything over and above the benchmark and the survey officer/planner has to involve the EU to determine the best way forward. This will usually be exactly the same as your mate's scenario in NZ.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Personally, I've mixed feelings.

On an individual basis, every soul I have met from among BT employees has been a sterling character, eager to do well  not only for his employer, but also for customers and the industry in general.  This extends not just to the odd engineer who has visited my home, but to the various people I met in my career which included several visits to work in test labs at Adastral Park at Martlesham, home of BT's Global R&D HQ.

But... (There had to be a 'but') I do sometimes feel that the success of these individuals is not helped, and probably even hindered, by executive level decisions, such as off-shoring help desks to Indian centres.   Yes I know off shore help desks are common, but BT ought to be able to rise above what's 'common'.

I also think that their marketing tactics are tacky and shoddy of late, knowing at least one OAP who was sold an FTTC package that she really didn't need, using what I can only describe as 'scare tactics'.

Sadly BS, tbh, I can't help feel that the 'charter' may have been composed by those senior execs who makes the decisions I don't like.  Put bluntly it could all be utter BS, but not as in 'Black' or 'Sheep'.   

Nonetheless I think all of BT, OR included,  and even the wooly head executives, are still head and shoulders above any contemporaries elswhere in UK tech industry, in  every way.   

[renluop]

Somewhat OT, but I have been looking through bits and pieces relating to BT Group. I cannot find any reference to Openreach as a subsidiary company of either BT plc or British Telecom plc.

Does anyone know its legal status; a company with a number, or something else?