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Author Topic: Scam phone calls about my internet  (Read 28254 times)

NewtronStar

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2015, 10:43:28 PM »

Why are most of the Telephone spammers Asia Indians surely there government could clamp down on these crimminal nuisance call centers.

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AArdvark

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2015, 11:04:18 PM »

I would suspect the Call Centers are not exactly legal in India or wherever they are based.

They will be staffed by people who must know it is a scam and therefore will be trying to keep a low profile.
I am sure they could be regulated better but India does have a problem with bureaucracy everywhere so most people avoid getting involved in anything that raises their profile.
It is entirely possible for the people 'reporting' a crime to get more grief than the 'alleged criminals'.

India does have problems with 'Blind spots' concerning many 'issues' that are too much 'bother' to police.
(This is not peculiar to India, I must say  ;D)   

It is a crime that does not impact India directly itself.
All the victims are foreign, so from the Indian perspective they have more important things to do.
It would be a different matter if it was impacting Indians or more correctly voters.  ;D

Strange that ..... but somewhat familiar to most countries/voters, when push comes to shove !!  ;)
It really needs to be driven from the victims end / countries by controlling the ease with which anyone can set up international calling centres that are not regulated at either end.
BT and ALL Telcos make a lot of money out people setting up/running call centres.
Ignoring the downside of the current way of operating is mandated by the profits they make with the current rules/controls (or lack of).
 
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2015, 11:04:26 PM »

Why are most of the Telephone spammers Asia Indians surely there government could clamp down on these crimminal nuisance call centers.

Our own government, in one of the most heavily 'surveilled' communities on the planet, has been largely impotent against the PPI, 'energy advisor', and etc cold callers.   IMHO, then, we are in no position to criticise the governments of other countries in respect of phone scams.   :(
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AArdvark

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2015, 11:09:29 PM »

Why are most of the Telephone spammers Asia Indians surely there government could clamp down on these crimminal nuisance call centers.

Our own government, in one of the most heavily 'surveilled' communities on the planet, has been largely impotent against the PPI, loft 'energy advisor', and etc cold callers.   IMHO, then, we are in no position to criticise the governments of other countries in respect of phone scams.   :(
This is true ONLY because we sell off vital social infrastructure (BT) to private companies.
We cannot control what is or is not allowed by a private company ....... as has been mentioned by Black Sheep.

We could have better controls IF we had the right to impose them.  :(

There WAS a downside to selling everything you could. Who would have known!!  ;D ;D ;)
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AArdvark

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2015, 11:17:42 PM »

Our own government, in one of the most heavily 'surveilled' communities on the planet, has been largely impotent ...

You have missed one thing.
Money & Business is more powerful than any Government.
The laws of the UK & US support this.
Unless you are prepared to work outside of the law and risk getting caught, Government can only demand so much.
This is why huge Multinational companies have so much influence and power.
They are more powerful than you or I, governments know this so they win in getting their attention.

I leave it to the reader to find an example from the many Companies we all know so well.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2015, 11:19:06 PM »

Why are most of the Telephone spammers Asia Indians surely there government could clamp down on these crimminal nuisance call centers.

Our own government, in one of the most heavily 'surveilled' communities on the planet, has been largely impotent against the PPI, loft 'energy advisor', and etc cold callers.   IMHO, then, we are in no position to criticise the governments of other countries in respect of phone scams.   :(
This is true ONLY because we sell off vital social infrastructure (BT) to private companies.
We cannot control what is or is not allowed by a private company ....... as has been mentioned by Black Sheep.

We could have better controls IF we had the right to impose them.  :(

There WAS a downside to selling everything you could. Who would have known!!  ;D ;D ;)

Nobody (at least not me) was suggesting that BT was to blame, or that any of the related M&As was to blame.

The point I was making was that many calls from 'PPI reclaims', and calls from your 'government grants advisor', etc, that many of us get all the time, are from border-line legal, if not criminal, enterprises.   Yet there are real difficulties in bringing them to justice, even in a country that takes a very dim view.
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AArdvark

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2015, 11:38:42 PM »

Why are most of the Telephone spammers Asia Indians surely there government could clamp down on these crimminal nuisance call centers.

Our own government, in one of the most heavily 'surveilled' communities on the planet, has been largely impotent against the PPI, loft 'energy advisor', and etc cold callers.   IMHO, then, we are in no position to criticise the governments of other countries in respect of phone scams.   :(
This is true ONLY because we sell off vital social infrastructure (BT) to private companies.
We cannot control what is or is not allowed by a private company ....... as has been mentioned by Black Sheep.

We could have better controls IF we had the right to impose them.  :(

There WAS a downside to selling everything you could. Who would have known!!  ;D ;D ;)

Nobody (at least not me) was suggesting that BT was to blame, or that any of the related M&As was to blame.

The point I was making was that many calls from 'PPI reclaims', and calls from your 'government grants advisor', etc, that many of us get all the time, are from border-line legal, if not criminal, enterprises.   Yet there are real difficulties in bringing them to justice, even in a country that takes a very dim view.

I am not 'Blaming' BT or any of the Telcos but highlighting that you cannot control a private company who are obliged to maximise profits for their shareholders.
What is needed is something we (the UK) cannot do as the point of control is no longer something that the government can impose controls on.
It would not be difficult for the Telcos to work together to control this problem.
The 'Criminal' groups behind all these scams are not breaking into Telephone exchanges and running lines to their call centres.
They are buying access to the Telephone networks like any other customer and then abusing the service to scam people out of money etc.
If the joint will was there it could be controlled.
I do not understand why the Telcos seem to have no say in how their services are used.
Using a legal service in an illegal way surely breaks contract T&C's never mind countries laws.

The questions need to be directed at the Telcos themselves to reveal what the 'real problem' is.

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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2015, 11:53:31 PM »

There really should be no problem at all, in any telecoms network, in identifying malicious callers.   The processes by which it is done are standardised.

In order to connect any telecoms equipment to a national network it would have to be conformance-tested, and conformance with 'malicious call identification' procedures would normally be included.   Trust me, much of the software I wrote in my own career was for telecoms signalling and monitoring, and was been subjected to such testing in the UK and abroad.

And yet even though the UK has, for better or worse, more intensive evidence-gathering facilities than almost any other country, we are largely unable to bring the PPI scammers, or 'govt energy advisor' scammers to justice.    Thus, we shouldn't be too critical of Indians for failing to keep a cap on 'virus scams'.   

 :)
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Weaver

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2015, 12:00:31 AM »

I quite agree with Aardvark in this matter.
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AArdvark

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2015, 04:01:03 AM »

@sevenlayermuddle
I am not being unfair to India or anywhere that is the country of 'operation' of these Scammers.

Note: I say operation because it is quite likely that the bodies on the phones are NOT gaining even 0.1% of the money made.
It is outside agencies related to criminal gangs often, but not always, from eastern European countries where the gangs have power and influence BUT a limited 'pocket' to dip into.
They are simply making their monies wherever they can take advantage of desperate people and social inequality.
Modern technology makes it easy to globalise your operations and make it more difficult to track/trace the real profiteers.
   
I understand what you are saying in terms of the difficulty but as you will know from your very real experience the information should be there to find.
Only, if the equipment is not something that has been 'hacked' to work around the built-in capabilities of the kit/system.
The fact that someone can easily connect 'hacked' kit that cannot be tracked/traced is down to the lack of control of the Telcos.
There is not an alternative that can be used at equal low cost and effort, so the Telcos hold all the cards and could impose better control.
Yet, they allow the scammers to get their own way and apparently so easily evade monitoring.
This is simply down to a lack of will ...... no more no less. (The question is why ?)

The imposition of onerous controls would be seen as a risk to business and profits.
This is because, as the Telcos are NOT working together to solve this problem, any lost customers will simply go to another Telco who is less choosy and asks less questions.
(That Telco could be in ANY country because of the reciprocal agreements for interconnectivity etc)

The problems are of their own making and the cut-throat selling attitudes are not aiding the resolution in any way.

Hence my opinion that the Telcos including BT are prepared to accept the situation because profit is more important than anything else.
They are fulfilling their obligations to their shareholders at the cost of everyone else.

Nothing is illegal, so the government can only ask nicely for some action but BT are not obliged to do anything. 
In terms of foreign Telcos doing anything there is even less leverage, unless BT applies pressure via the reciprocal agreements they have for interconnectivity etc
Once again such action would be seen as a risk to profits due to the possibility of 'Tit for Tat' responses, so no action there.

The only way to impact this problem is by ALL the Telcos working together, with a joint will to eradicate the problem.
Herding Cats comes to mind, but that is probably much easier.  ;D ;D ;)

 
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NewtronStar

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2015, 09:30:28 PM »

The Scammers and or PPI and even the new type of calls "Surveys" they seem to have been able to gathered UK phone numbers and but this into there automated call center database.

It's not rocket science the info from ISP call centers has and still is getting into the wrong hands and it's from India were most UK call centers are based the fraudulence begins  :(
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guest

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2015, 05:10:39 PM »

Its fairly simple as to why nothing really gets done re cold calling/fake CLID etc.

As always "cui bono" as the Romans said - "Who benefits?"

1) All of the telecos due to increased revenue;

2) The govt as they can get more people off "benefits" - scam/spam callcentres in the UK employ a lot of people although paying them is something else... ;

3) The chuggers - its nearly enough to make you never give to charity again;

4) The parasites - solicitors & their ambulance chasing ilk.

Who does it hurt?

People who don't have any recourse to a sensible way of stopping the onslaught.

So bugger all gets done until enough people complain - and do it every time.

You could legislate against this effectively without even taking a vote in parliament - the relevant laws are subject to statutory instruments (IIRC the "westminster-speak"). Successive govts have failed to do so, draw your own conclusions.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2015, 08:03:28 PM »

I'm not actually convinced that the Telcos even benefit  to any extent (from increased traffic).

Consider... I suspect (right or wrong?) a lot of these calls will be to 'truly random' numbers, ie numbers that may or may not be currently assigned.

If so then a fair percentage of calls would fail to connect, returning 'number unobtainable' to the caller.  But in doing so, the scammer has consumed resource and bandwidth in the Telco's switching equipment,  and yet the Telco will receive no payment for that usage.   It's not such a clear 'win' as meets the eye.
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guest

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2015, 12:49:16 PM »

Its unlikely to be truly random and its trivial to see which number ranges are issued in the UK & the charging bands for each.

If they dial "blind" within those ranges (they don't in my experience unless they are running a premium-rate callback scam) then there may be something in what you say, however I'm sure the telecos KNOW when they're selling to spammers/scammers & price their offerings accordingly.

For example why does a guy in a single unit on a (mainly dead) Welsh industrial park make over 100,000 calls/month? (I'm not linking the unit in question but its well-known) Likewise how does a (closed) shop in Loughborough make 50,000 calls per month when it doesn't even have an active phoneline? The answer of course in both cases is VoIP and lots of Indians making the calls.

The telecos just look the other way & pocket the cash - much as email providers used to do prior to Spamhaus & other blocking lists. Interestingly the callblocker I use (Truecall) now has something called "community blocking" where you can choose to have your "Zap" list updated automatically based on what other users have reported/blocked. Once large chunks of number space become essentially useless due to spammers (happened with email & IP address ranges) then that may concentrate minds as end-users refuse "contaminated" numbers.

As has been said already - the telecos have the means to stop the abuse now. They choose not to.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Scam phone calls about my internet
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2015, 01:45:57 AM »

Well lets see over the course of my 14 year journey with Internet Service Providers this what I recall, first year with BT no cold calls then moved to wanadoo/orange no cold calls over two years then moved to talktalk this is when we first encounter cold calls and the fake MS calls "your computer is infected".

Moved back to BT for just over two years those cold calls became less to almost non-existent then moved to EE and those unsolicited cold calls has become an epidemic to say the least.
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