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Author Topic: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?  (Read 28918 times)

Darren

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2015, 10:26:42 PM »

I could be wrong and I'm not convinced either way if new hardware has been added but, I imagine if there is a spare line card slot, a new card could be added, lines from an old card mapped to the new card via software during quiet time (overnight) and then the old card removed. Repeat untill all cards have been swapped out.

My line resynced at 10Mb above attainable over 3 weeks ago and held on fine but has just rebooted with Retrain Reason: 0 at 21:30, strange it's done it at this time of night. Back down to the previous sysn which is no better or worse, unlike some people who have had their sync reduced. That may of been because it was due to fall anyway because of increasing crosstalk.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 10:38:37 PM by Darren »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2015, 04:01:12 AM »

I could be wrong, but Im still not convinced that this is a full line card swapout or change of linecard model.   

The linecard chipsets are capable of doing some very clever things and even capable of making hardware type changes to the chip itself via a remote session.  Im not talking general firmware updates like as per on our routers, nor that the number is an actual f/w version, but possibly how the dslam is configured to be able to update to certain new technologies from within the chip itself.

I was hoping to pinpoint the date of the IFTN update to a closer time frame to be more certain, but those numbers changing on the ECI's too is what is making me think that its not in specific relation to the line card, but more some sort of configuration to the line card.
 
Ive just looked on the ECI site and as far as I can see there is only 1 type of VDSL2 line card for the M41 which BT could possibly be using and that is the VTU-C-64.   I just checked the photo from inside my cab and its clearly marked VTU-C64.  So if there isnt any other line card that they could be using in my cab, how come I went from IFTN:0xb203 to 0xb204 a couple of months ago.   How can the same set of numbers change on ECI's when there isn't anything else BT could update to other than a V41.  I think the later is extremely unlikely and Im quite sure I would notice some down time if it was a full DSLAM swap out.  Therefore that number can and does change without a physical swap out of hardware.

   
Also if it was vectoring, then as we've already discussed many times in the past, we know that the Huawei's are already capable and it only requires the addition of the vectoring engine module, not a change of line-card.

Even the VTU-C64 line cards in the M41's are capable of doing vectoring.  The M41 could do vectoring at a line card level, but its a waste of ports.  The V41 is practically the same as the M41, same size, even uses the same line cards it major difference is the layout of the ports to make additional room to slot in a vectoring line card.  The obstacle with the M41 is purely no room to slot in the VEC256 vectoring card to be able do shelf based vectoring. 

I'm therefore inclined to think that this is some sort of remote session to set or change something on the chip.


yeah I am not convinced its hardware either, my engineer wouldnt say.  But he confirmed to me if it was a hardware change it be 95% chance at night.

Usually in things like bios versioning in comoputing, chipset version = hardware version, so it never ever changes if the hardware isnt changed. So my opinion is if it was software,, then its either a bug or the change is non standard to expected versioning behaviour.

By the way you saying ECI cabinets have also had a chipset version change?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #62 on: September 05, 2015, 04:02:49 AM »

Thinking further about ECI vectoring, apparently a single IVE1000 vectoring chip can handle a maximum of 48 lines.

Quote from: IVE1000 product brief
One VINAXTM IVE1000 device allows full cancellation for up to 48 ports in profiles 17/12/8 and up to 32 ports in profile 30.

So a 64 port ECI line card would need to contain two IVE1000 chips to do vectoring on all its ports.

I also found this which seems to imply line card level vectoring wouldn't have 64 port line cards, or not in 2011 at least.

yep on M41 ECI (think I told kitz in pm) they have to disable a load of ports to enable vectoring, which BT may consider as cash thrown down a pit.
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kitz

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #63 on: September 05, 2015, 07:06:42 AM »

Note:  I know this topic has moved on from the Huawei to ECI, but it is important in the discussion when trying to figure out what those numbers indicate.


Quote
I think VTU-C 64 is a fairly generic label.

I couldn't find anything on their site to indicate that they sold anything other than those which would be suitable for the VDSL2.  :(
There were other types of line cards but they were for older type technologies. 
There was also indication that at one point there was a VTU-C 32, and as you rightly say the final number indicated the number of ports... and I fully agree with you that the labelling does seem generic,  but from what I could see there was only the one type suitable and why I said that I couldn't see "any other line card that BT could be using" in their M41's.

Quote
apparently a single IVE1000 vectoring chip can handle a maximum of 48 lines

Is that the chip on the line card? I honestly don't know, but Im presuming that it is.
 
If so, I think that applies to a maximum of 48 vectored lines handled purely when vectoring is done on a line card basis. The addition of a specific vectoring management module increases the capability of the maximum number of lines that can be handled up to 384 ports. - From the linked doc " supports up to 384 VDSL2 ports by cascading multiple IVE1000 devices" - ie by using a specific vectoring module to chain them together.

ECI's vectoring module they use with the V41 (basically an M41 but with room for a port for a vectoring module) is the VEC256 which can take and control up to 4 x VTU-C 64's. The use of the the vectoring module means that all 64 ports can be used for vectoring.


Code: [Select]
In this case, the vectoring engine card controls ECI’s four 64-port VDSL2 line cards,
without compromising performance or capacity.

This is what I meant when I said "Even the VTU-C64 line cards in the M41's are capable of doing vectoring.  The M41 could do vectoring at a line card level, but its a waste of ports".

Quote
yep on M41 ECI (think I told kitz in pm) they have to disable a load of ports to enable vectoring, which BT may consider as cash thrown down a pit.

No not me, I was already aware of the limitation and port wastage if they were to implement line card level vectoring.
AFAIK I was the first to say that the ECI's could do vectoring at line card level when others were saying it couldn't.  Ive made several posts about it over the past few years, but this is one from 2013, which also links back to the ECI blog that ejs also found.  Note the specific mention of the ECI 64 port line cards and no port wastage when used with the VEC 256 vectoring module.
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kitz

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #64 on: September 05, 2015, 07:18:13 AM »

Quote
By the way you saying ECI cabinets have also had a chipset version change?

Yes... and No.   
This is the whole reason why I dragged ECI's into the conversation  more than 2 weeks ago. Some time early this year, the ECI's went from IFTN:0xb203 / v0xb203 to  IFTN:0xb204 / v0xb204.   Yet there hasn't been a physical hardware swap of the line cards.   There isnt (afaik) any other line card that BT could be using in their M41's.

So yes because the number string has changed too for the ECI's. No because all indications are that its not an actual physical hardware change of the chipset or linecard.

Remember in my earlier post I mentioned about how linecard chips were very clever and they can make 'hardware like changes via a remote session' and how I deliberately said its not just a change of firmware its far more than that.  The correct term is Field-Programmable Gate Array - Read the link.


So back to why I think the change is a remote software update and not a physical swap out.

I am not sure what that string of numbers represent, but particularly with having seen those numbers change on the ECI's, its why I'm thinking that its something to do with remote [software type] configuration changes that BT are making to the chip itself.


----
ETA

Thinking about it, FPGA may be the reason why ECI only has one type of VDSL2 card (bar the port nos), and why they use the rather generic naming convention.

I should also say that I was always previously under the belief that the string related to a specific chipset on the line-card, but now Im leaning towards at least some part of it being configuration of the chipset on the linecard.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:08:47 AM by kitz »
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ejs

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #65 on: September 05, 2015, 09:08:47 AM »

I thought it was implying that the 64 port line cards didn't have a vectoring chip on them, and that the port wastage was due to how the cables had to be arranged, rather than that there's only one vectoring chip on a 64 port line card, and it can only vector 48 of the ports. For example, for line card level vectoring, if there were 3 cables each with 30 lines, that would require 3 48-port line cards, you wouldn't be able to use more of the ports across 2 line cards, because you couldn't connect half of the lines in one bundle to one line card and the other half in that bundle to the other line card.

The "vectoring ready" line cards (192 port system) in the IVE1000 product brief don't have a vectoring chip on them, all the vectoring chips are on the vectoring card.

What's labelling those 0xb204 bytes as the "chipset version"? The G.994.1 PDF just says they are "vendor-specific information". It does not say they indicate the "chipset version".
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kitz

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #66 on: September 05, 2015, 11:26:05 AM »

The line do cards support vectoring, wastage occurs as you say due to how the cable has to be laid out in that you cant have different feeders on the same line card.

I had previously wondered why their 1st example only used 48 ports.  I hadnt seen that IVE1000 link before and if that is the chip that is used on the VTU-C64's then it now makes perfect sense why ECI used 48 ports for the vectoring at line card level for their example. ie its a limitation of the chip because it cant cope with vectoring more than 48 ports on the card.

The way I read it is:

Quote
The VINAX Vectoring chipset supports all variations of energy efficient, vectored (DSM-L3) VDSL2 aggregation systems. It consists of an Integrated Vector Engine IVE1000 optimized coprocessor
and the Vinax V3 chip set.

This is the chipset on the VTU-C64 line card, which can do line card level vectoring

One VINAXTM IVE1000 device allows full cancellation for up to 48 ports in profiles 17/12/8 and up to 32 ports in profile 30.

Quote
When connected to a standard compliant CPE device such as the XWAY™
VRX200, this combination allows the implementation of a complete end-to-end vectoring solution

To get more out of it connect to a VRX200 to do shelf level vectoring

supports up to 384 VDSL2 ports by cascading multiple IVE1000 devices

Here the Vectoring module is doing the hardwork and performing multiple vectoring regardless which feeder is connected to which line card port and able to keep track of things and no port wastage.

Kind of like how a motherboard may have a basic onboard graphics, but to do anything decent you need a proper Graphics card.

Quote
What's labelling those 0xb204 bytes as the "chipset version"? The G.994.1 PDF just says they are "vendor-specific information". It does not say they indicate the "chipset version".

I dont have a clue. I was looking the other week and googling FPGA & (iirc) Vendor id, didn't provide any definite answers but started to give an inkling.  I really cant recall what I did find where, but I think it was something relating to bonding, so in otherwords use FPGA to set the chipset to do bonding or add a module to do bonding and that number could change.  I think it implied by changing the gates then you could end up with another number, but Im unsure if that is under the CP control or if they are preset by the vendor.  There was also something about it depends if was open or closed id but I think that may have come from someone was using FPGA to build their own version of a graphics card.

I really dont know enough about FPGA, but I am beginning to suspect that if they change something major using FPGA then you will get a new number if the manufacturer has pre-registered that configuration it as say IFN[hex].

Its a while since I looked and I've got to go out in a mo, you may find something more definite in that area.  Dont take what I said above as gospel Im only telling you so where I started looking and about as far as I got... and I may have remembered wrong.

Unless someone else knows more about FPGA and how it works than I do... and that wont be hard since I know practically zilch other than you can use it to make remote changes to the line card. 
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ejs

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2015, 01:28:00 PM »

It just seems a bit odd, for ECI to promote all the advantages of system level vectoring, but then put a vectoring engine chip in each line card anyway, and not put multiple vectoring engine chips in each line card to do all 64 ports.

I read it a bit like: ECI can squeeze 64 VDSL ports into a single line card because all the vectoring engines go on a separate card. But then it does mention usable ports with line card level vectoring, presumably due to the limited amount of vectoring processing capacity in each line card.
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konrado5

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2015, 01:52:30 PM »

Perhaps it will be helpful. When my chipset version was changed to 0xa48d from 0xa32f, I noticed my router begginned reporting SNR values for upstream on "adslctl info --SNR". Furtermore, it has no longer reports strange upstream SNR margin for upstream during the first minutes of new connection as I've described in this old thread.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,13446.msg253639.html#msg253639


Best regards
konrado5
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Chrysalis

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2015, 02:32:56 PM »

its possible  that chipset version is short for chipset software version in this case.

In the past my ECI cards did get swapped out as I posted on here about it when I caught a guy doing it during a night, but it was quite a while go now that happened.
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babis3g

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2015, 01:02:54 PM »

OFF topic but related ... from Greece

from vdsl users i have seen
DSLAM/MSAN type: BDCM:0xa41b / v0xa41b

adsl otenet (so far there is not vdsl at my end as far i know)
before broadcom 0xa188 (an old thomson has recored as BRAS JUNIPER ΙΟΑ 2 Ε350) ...
lately appearing as
DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa3a7 / v0xa3a7
(i don't have any longer the thomson to confirm the dslam make if is the same)

Modem/router firmware:     AnnexA version - A2pv6F039o1.d26a
(zyxel vgm 1312 ... V100AAJZ7.C0 firmware)

VDSL line (wind)
DSLAM/MSAN type: IFTN:0xd087 / v0xd087
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:17:05 PM by babis3g »
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hagrid

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #71 on: December 03, 2015, 04:49:30 PM »

My Huawei DSLAM had a firmware update at approx 2:30 am this morning

previously       DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa59 / v0xa459

now               DSLAM/MSAN type:           BDCM:0xa48c / v0xa48c
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ejs

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Re: Huawei DSLAM - Chipset version changed - Vectoring?
« Reply #72 on: December 03, 2015, 05:12:06 PM »

I also saw this recently, in the document at the bottom of the box on this page.

Quote from: EMP2900 CPE Affecting Release Notes – New Hardware
New Hardware:
Introduction of VCPD 64 Port Card
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