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Author Topic: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat  (Read 8518 times)

kitz

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 10:47:36 AM »


Just ran a couple of tests for buffer bloat.  I also see B download and A for upload at TBB.
.. and this is my one from DSLreports

Strange - I've just run the same test using my 8924 and get an A.  I don't know if it makes a difference but I'm using firmware 7C0.

As was discussed in another thread the fact that Im seeing B for download and A for upload on the TBB test probably indicates that any problems with bufferbloat are outside my own network.  As also discussed in the other thread although these tests can identify that there is bufferbloat somewhere, there are various places where it can occur.    Presumably the 'B' rating on my DSLreports test will have come because my downstream is 'B'..  whereby the TBB test scores the upstream and downstream independently.   

ejs made a very good point in that other thread - for downstream its less likely to be the router itself.   When its downstream then the router is going to be presented with traffic at <80Mbps from the WAN and in theory it should have no problem (or need) to buffer data onto a 1GbE LAN.   Its with upstream where our routers are most likely to show signs of bufferbloat because its being presented with traffic of up to 1Gbps from the LAN, but can only put upto 20Mbps on to the external WAN.
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 11:33:52 AM »

If you run a traceroute when downloading a large file, you can see exactly where the latency is occuring.

Could you all run a traceroute please?
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Weaver

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 12:09:35 PM »

@kitz regarding upstream, if you have a router on your LAN that is a gateway when it's transmitting to the LAN it could possibly (in theory) use flow control to create back pressure and push buffering back into sending edge devices. So no buffer bloat in that gateway. I have no idea if this actually happens. I have designed systems that work exactly like that though.

Assuming there's no flow control available, LAN-to-WAN routers can have a problem with tx buffer management but there are lots of techniques for doing the right thing. You need to have a tx buffer for several reasons, having virtually nothing isn't a viable option. QoS need to get hold of several PDUs and see them so it can prioritise them and do its job right. Even without QoS you might at leadt want to have a fair queing policy and have tx ack prioritisation by queue-jumping as a TCP performance optimisation.

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pooclah

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 04:17:18 PM »


Just ran a couple of tests for buffer bloat.  I also see B download and A for upload at TBB.
.. and this is my one from DSLreports

Strange - I've just run the same test using my 8924 and get an A.  I don't know if it makes a difference but I'm using firmware 7C0.

As was discussed in another thread <snip>

Thanks for that I have a better understanding now, and the need to make time to read more threads.
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Chrysalis

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 05:41:10 PM »


Just ran a couple of tests for buffer bloat.  I also see B download and A for upload at TBB.
.. and this is my one from DSLreports

Strange - I've just run the same test using my 8924 and get an A.  I don't know if it makes a difference but I'm using firmware 7C0.

As was discussed in another thread the fact that Im seeing B for download and A for upload on the TBB test probably indicates that any problems with bufferbloat are outside my own network.  As also discussed in the other thread although these tests can identify that there is bufferbloat somewhere, there are various places where it can occur.    Presumably the 'B' rating on my DSLreports test will have come because my downstream is 'B'..  whereby the TBB test scores the upstream and downstream independently.   

ejs made a very good point in that other thread - for downstream its less likely to be the router itself.   When its downstream then the router is going to be presented with traffic at <80Mbps from the WAN and in theory it should have no problem (or need) to buffer data onto a 1GbE LAN.   Its with upstream where our routers are most likely to show signs of bufferbloat because its being presented with traffic of up to 1Gbps from the LAN, but can only put upto 20Mbps on to the external WAN.

you correct but policing the downstream can move the buffer to your own network and as such QoS functions on a router can and do improve downstream buffer bloat.

I dont like it every time I read in places that user's are powerless to fix downstream bufferbloat, its not that, its just that its harder to do and as such developers dont like to push downstream QoS features.

I am guessing everyone missed my earlier posts on this, here is a pic of effect of downstream QoS.

Now as to why some people get good bufferbloat without local QoS policies? I guess it depends on their isp. As some isp's will buffer more than others, also bufferbloat will increase if the isp has congestion or has their own QoS.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 05:43:49 PM by Chrysalis »
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Weaver

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 05:43:34 PM »

>  policing the downstream can move the buffer to your own network and as such QoS functions on a router can and do improve downstream buffer bloat.

@Chrysalis  - apologies, but I don't understand
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broadstairs

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 05:50:55 PM »

I just had a look at the QoS settings on my 8924 and it looks to me that you could quite easily get it all messed up and make things worse. I think I have some reading to do before I try messing with this  ;)

Stuart
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Chrysalis

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 05:51:13 PM »

Weaver tcp self regulates its speed, however it does this by zig zagging up and down.  It will slow down when the receiver cannot keep up and speed up when the congestion window and receive window are not filled.

Isp's tend to have large buffers for various reasons, the main one been it helps situations when there is saturation either isp or user side.  So what happens is because the isp is buffering the traffic, essentially the receive window gets too big.  The data gets backlogged in the isp's buffers and hence buffer bloat.  Then all data has to wait its turn to get through that buffer and hence higher latency.

Basically by policing the traffic on the router, it will slow down traffic before TCP mechanisms do and prevents the receive window getting too big.  This moves the buffer to the router, and you have direct control how big those buffers are on the router.

There is downsides, one been that typically single threaded transactions will not max the connection as the policing prevents thats.  But they will still typically be able to utilise a high %, and multi threaded will typically flat line at the police limit.

I know it works as I have it configured on my own connection.  Before policing my downstream downloading from steam caused heavy packet loss, now it does not, and typically latency is only slightly affected now as well.
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Weaver

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 06:03:10 PM »

> will slow down traffic before TCP mechanisms do

Thanks Chrysalis, I feel that's the crux of it.

Very helpful. I have designed systems like this before, but I didn't get your point until I read this.

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kitz

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2015, 10:04:27 PM »

Split this off from the other thread which was used to report latest f/w versions and any problems with the various versions.
Bufferbloat seems to be a hot topic in itself right now, so it deserves its own thread..   plus I'd like to read it when Im not about to drop :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2015, 10:56:50 PM »

well kitz is some missing posts now regarding the bufferbloat conversation :(
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kitz

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Re: ZyXel VMG8324-B10A Bufferbloat
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2015, 12:59:43 PM »

well kitz is some missing posts now regarding the bufferbloat conversation :(

I split this topic off from this thread here which is supposed to be for f/w versions.
Any of the posts about bufferbloat where split out of the f/w discussion thread and I cant see any still in there that Ive missed.
I think confusion may be because there are also topics about bufferbloat that were started in other threads too.
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