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Author Topic: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?  (Read 5887 times)

Weaver

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FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« on: July 11, 2015, 12:19:28 PM »

[where FTTDP stands for “to the pole”  ;) ]

as in

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2036390

Where are we now with this tasty goodness? Hope it is real?
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2015, 01:10:22 PM »

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Weaver

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2015, 02:33:47 PM »

That link is excellent, black Sheep.

I didn’t understand the last part about “easy-to-deploy” cable.
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Weaver

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2015, 02:35:41 PM »

How would BT physically site the fibre part, the link from exchange to the remote node?
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Weaver

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 03:42:39 PM »

Could anyone give me a general idea of how the politics-vs-delivery time works? Are BT getting firm offers of cash up front from public bodies to support the progression to FTTDP / FTTRN or are potential customers going to be caught up in a rut while the politicians decide whether or not to do the right thing and just cough up.

On the BT availability checker at http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/where-and-when/,
having entered the runes for my house, which is some 4-5 miles from the NSBFD (https://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/NSBFD) exchange, I get a less-than-comforting message as follows, as I’m sure have plenty fellow kitizens:

“We're keen to bring Superfast Fibre to your area and are exploring how best to achieve that. We may deliver it as part of our commercial programme, or by working in partnership with your local authority. At the moment you can't order”…
…Ultrafast Interweb, and you’re just stuffed, because we’re telling you nothing.

So BT is “keen”, but either it’s a secret or else BT doesn’t know what it’s up to yet, so much going on, can’t keep track of it all. I wonder who does know?
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WWWombat

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2015, 05:17:53 AM »

Could anyone give me a general idea of how the politics-vs-delivery time works? Are BT getting firm offers of cash up front from public bodies to support the progression to FTTDP / FTTRN or are potential customers going to be caught up in a rut while the politicians decide whether or not to do the right thing and just cough up.

FTTRN should be seen as a part of the current rollout - VDSL2-based, "up to 80Mbps" technology - more suitable for small sites, likely rural, more than 1km from an upgraded FTTC cabinet. It has proven expensive to get power to so far, so may (or may not) end up part of the BDUK schemes. The LA's have money, but BT cannot, as yet, make it into a cost-effective, deployable solution. While that remains true, the LA's have nothing to spend their money on.

FTTdp nodes, with G.fast-based speeds, can be better seen as the "next" rollout. In government documents, this rollout is likely to appear under the label of "ultrafast" broadband, rather than mere "superfast" ... and everything that the government has written so far tells us that they have no plans to fund anything; it is all being left to "the market" for competitive investment. The government will help to make it easy and cheap to invest, but they will not fund it themselves.

We do know that VM is extending their network to roughly 66%, and it can already be said to deliver ultrafast speeds ... with Docsis 3.1 yet to come. We know, therefore, that government funding won't be involved in that part of the network at all.

So BT is “keen”, but either it’s a secret or else BT doesn’t know what it’s up to yet, so much going on, can’t keep track of it all. I wonder who does know?

The checkers won't include anything about FTTdp yet, because we (as a planet) don't know enough about either G.fast or FTTdp as yet. BT has high hopes, but not enough knowledge.

The chipset manufacturers have held a couple of plugfests so far, aimed at getting equipment to interwork. The vendors have, I believe, just held their first plugfest. Real equipment that "just works" (without an army of engineers, tweaking things manually) is still a way off ... but BT are keen to get real-life experiences running.

However, BT's plans look to require changes in G.fast mk.II - which have barely begun discussion.

Vectoring was approved 5 years ago, and was going through plugfests 3 years ago. That equipment made it into Eircom's network last year, but not BT's. That might give you an idea of the timescales involved here; to start deploying in a year looks tight.

I wonder what kind of deployment makes sense. FTTdp-on-demand?

That link is excellent, black Sheep.

I didn’t understand the last part about “easy-to-deploy” cable.


That article was based on a presentation at UKNOF, linked here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLpk2dz6nBQ

Part of the presentation is used to describe the options involved in making fibre easier to deploy (in particular the work involved in blowing fibre through subduct, using connectors instead of splices, and using fibre that is more easily split into strands by hand).

In the end, the failure of FTTPoD to be a viable product comes down to the cost to deploy - which is dictated, in turn, by the amount of manpower used in those activities. Making FTTPoD  viable seems to have triggered a massive rethink in the way PON fibre is deployed between the new spines (put in alongside FTTC) and homes.
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2015, 10:59:52 AM »

If the average home is within a km of the nearest cabinet, is that going to make these new technologies that much easier to deploy?
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WWWombat

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2015, 11:51:03 AM »

In terms of "average", we appear to have been told:
- The median line length (exchange to home) is 3.2km, while 90% are less than 5.5km
- The median D-side (cabinet to home) is 450m, while 85% are less than 1km
- Drop wires (DP to home) are mostly between 20m and 60m; 20% are shorter, 20% are longer.

The current (commercial and BDUK) rollout will have taken fibre spines from being 3km away from the average home, to within 450m of the average home. Or from 5.5km away from the majority of homes, to within 1km.

The mere existence of the fibre spines makes it easier to deploy deeper, and these new technologies will help make use of that.

However, as I mention in another thread on here, getting power will be a key issue. The new "reverse power" technology is one aspect that might make things easier/cheaper beyond any other, but it isn't yet a mature, trusted technology.
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tommy45

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2015, 12:58:27 PM »

All this talk of faster speeds, Can BT really support faster speeds,? considering the recent capacity problems it had, at peak times, and a look around shows that this is still an issue for some in some locations, I think BT needs to invest in it's core networking before increasing speeds

Also it should also by now have realised that upload speed is just as important and the download speed is for some, and offer symmetrical instead of this backwards trend of a laughable 10% of the download speed, FTTH 330/30  which is pathetic
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2015, 04:03:04 PM »

All this talk of faster speeds, Can BT really support faster speeds,? considering the recent capacity problems it had, at peak times, and a look around shows that this is still an issue for some in some locations, I think BT needs to invest in it's core networking before increasing speeds

Also it should also by now have realised that upload speed is just as important and the download speed is for some, and offer symmetrical instead of this backwards trend of a laughable 10% of the download speed, FTTH 330/30  which is pathetic

Quite a bold statement, based on your own experience and nothing else ?? I have spent years working with EU's (Both bus and Res), and I would probably put a ball-park figure of around 5% that actually whinged when the max ADSL US was circa 1Meg. Now we have the 10 and 20Meg products ...... I've not EVER had one EU in any guise, mention that the US speeds are pathetic ?? Where are you getting the impression it is "Backwards" for the vast majority of DSL users ??
 
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c6em

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2015, 04:34:52 PM »

As I've previously posted on here, I have the temporary advantage of being able where I am currently to use a Gigalcear connection on their 100/100Mbps symmetrical FTTP network.
So one can safely say I'm not limited by ISP or by the technology as indeed just over 100/100 is what one gets 24/7 on speedtests and ping times to google.com are generally 5ms.

Despite this it is painfully obvious that most websites are simply unable to cope with servicing such a ultra-fast capable connection - and that includes the UK based speedtests ones particularly for the upload test (I used Netherlands based ones instead).

Now I hear what you are all going to say about families with multiple users at the same time using the connection and agree with you on that point...however with one user... I've found:
AntiVirus updates from a paid for subscription (ie not a free one) come in at around 40Mbps and Microsoft OS updates download at around 50Mbps.
I still see BBC iplayer buffering and by rapidly running a concurrent speed check which still give 105/105 while iplayer is 'stationary' this pretty well proves the BBC/their servers/network are the cause of the delay.

As to uploads:
The max speed I can upload to a cloud site is at 20Mbps - the cloud sites are simply incapable of accepting data at a faster rate or are deliberately throttling it to that speed.

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GigabitEthernet

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2015, 04:37:23 PM »

iPlayer still buffers on a 35Mbps connection so I assume BBC iPlayer is just crap for whatever reason.
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tbailey2

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2015, 05:05:18 PM »

iPlayer still buffers on a 35Mbps connection so I assume BBC iPlayer is just crap for whatever reason.

It runs quite happily on my ADSL2+ 6Mbps connection with no sign of buffering....  :-\

I think they stream at 2.8Mbps or so at HD and less at normal quality?
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Tony
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Weaver

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2015, 09:47:36 PM »

guys, If you're talking about iPlayer failing when there's a lot of other load, then that sounds like a lack of QoS. Either iPlayer not QoS-marking, or other network elements not observing QoS discipline. Clearly if you are lucky enough to get a huge downstream flow from another source completely filling your pipe, then iPlayer is left with no room and it's hardly the BBC’s fault. make sense?

If you are talking about iPlayer falling when the network is not loaded, then that has to be something like jitter, dropped packets out there somewhere, packets getting reordered, a server problem, or who knows what.
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WWWombat

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Re: FTTDP - where are we? Is it real?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2015, 12:53:32 PM »

All this talk of faster speeds, Can BT really support faster speeds,? considering the recent capacity problems it had, at peak times, and a look around shows that this is still an issue for some in some locations, I think BT needs to invest in it's core networking before increasing speeds

I think this is going on as we speak - it is a continuous process for all businesses, including BT. What you see is a gradual shift of the core fibre, from older 1G standards to 10G, then to 40G, then to 100G. Future developments will take this to 400G and beyond.

BT did a presentation on "ultra broadband" last year, that started out describing changes in the access network:
http://www.huawei.com/minisite/ubbf2014/en/assets/pdf/7.pdf

On page 11, it shows how the access network improvements drive the core network (with an interesting prediction graph covering 2013-2033, noting a 25-fold growth over 10 years).
Page 12 tells us "We are now deploying 100Gbit/s coherent optics", and that they shift into whole new generations of transmission (optical) technology every 10 years.

I find some of the UKNOF presentations fascinating in this regard - as these are the people who run the core networks.

This is what BT had to say about the work on the core transmission network to the Islands of Scotland (ie the stuff that included the recent new submarine cables); it included 30 new WDM nodes, 500 miles of fibre, and lit 10x 10Gbps, building a lot of extra resilience into the core for those islands (details at 10:30)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZU5tvBUwZM

At the same meeting, Sky had this to say about their new core network:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQUoO4Wb7s4
This gives a history of their core network, and shows their migration to a new core network, based on 100G optical transmission.

Quote
Also it should also by now have realised that upload speed is just as important and the download speed is for some, and offer symmetrical instead of this backwards trend of a laughable 10% of the download speed, FTTH 330/30  which is pathetic

For some, but far too few, the upload speed is indeed "just as" important. For the vast majority, it isn't as important, and isn't ever likely to be. The growth is all in video - and the majority of that video goes in one direction only.

In general, cheap broadband is the product of choice for the masses - made cheap because it is for the masses, and the cheapness happens because "one size fits all". If someone is a part of the minority that this "one size" does not suit, then they need to expect to pay more ... and that brings them to the leased line market.

The other alternative is to make a symmetrical product for all, which lowers the downstream. Then everyone suffers from a crippled downstream for the benefit of the few.
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