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Author Topic: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing  (Read 3890 times)

waltergmw

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Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« on: May 26, 2015, 10:56:50 PM »

Gentlefolk,

I am seriously disturbed but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at the deception Connecting Cumbria are using in their recent marketing material they produced for the promotional meetings in Workington, Kendal and Grasmere just last week. They used the same graphic apparently advertising exaggerated ping times to transcontinental locations presumably expecting an unsuspecting and mainly gullible public to be impressed with the false data as a means to increase VDSL adoption rates. To make matters far worse many of those in the centre of Grasmere are all on EO lines in any case.

They fail to say that it is impossible to obtain identical ping times ostensibly in three locations and my ping tests to the Sydney Morning Herald demonstrate much more reasonable and much lower ping times:-

--- www.smh.com.au/ ping statistics —

40 packets transmitted, 40 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 14.519/16.024/20.748/1.300 ms

Kind regards,
Walter
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burakkucat

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 12:46:04 AM »

Code: [Select]
[Duo2 ~]$ ping -c 40 www.smh.com.au
PING a1040.g.akamai.net (62.24.131.149) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=37.6 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=2 ttl=56 time=37.6 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=3 ttl=56 time=36.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=4 ttl=56 time=36.9 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=5 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=6 ttl=56 time=37.5 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=7 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=8 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=9 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=10 ttl=56 time=37.7 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=11 ttl=56 time=37.2 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=12 ttl=56 time=36.9 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=13 ttl=56 time=38.1 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=14 ttl=56 time=36.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=15 ttl=56 time=37.1 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=16 ttl=56 time=37.1 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=17 ttl=56 time=36.6 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=18 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=19 ttl=56 time=36.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=20 ttl=56 time=37.6 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=21 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=22 ttl=56 time=37.9 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=23 ttl=56 time=38.0 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=24 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=25 ttl=56 time=37.1 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=26 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=27 ttl=56 time=36.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=28 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=29 ttl=56 time=37.6 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=30 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=31 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=32 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=33 ttl=56 time=36.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=34 ttl=56 time=37.8 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=35 ttl=56 time=37.3 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=36 ttl=56 time=37.5 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=37 ttl=56 time=37.4 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=38 ttl=56 time=36.4 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=39 ttl=56 time=37.2 ms
64 bytes from host-62-24-131-149.as13285.net (62.24.131.149): icmp_seq=40 ttl=56 time=36.8 ms

--- a1040.g.akamai.net ping statistics ---
40 packets transmitted, 40 received, 0% packet loss, time 39099ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 36.382/37.359/38.133/0.487 ms
[Duo2 ~]$
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kitz

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 01:07:11 AM »

Sorry walter, not sure if I missed the point?

Quote
advertising exaggerated ping times to transcontinental locations

I dont see that they are exaggerated :confused:

From my location in the NW I can ping: -

 - NYC in 77ms
 - Tokyo in 185ms
 - Sydney for me is 328 but that depends on your ISP routing which could either go via Europe > Asia, or like mine NYC > LA > Pacific > Aus. Its not impossible that you could get shorter routing on BT if they go via Europe.

The ad is to me just a representation of how quick the internet can be.   
However what I do find more misleading is I wouldn't expect those ping times to vary regardless if I was on adsl or vdsl. Latency is nothing to do with connection speed.


Quote
my ping tests to the Sydney Morning Herald demonstrate much more reasonable and much lower ping times:-

Thats a London server in Telehouse.  I can ping it in 12ms

Code: [Select]
C:\Users\kitz>tracert www.smh.com.au

Tracing route to a1040.g.akamai.net [23.192.162.137] over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    12 ms    11 ms    11 ms  lo0.14.central14.pcl-bng02.plus.net [195.166.130.155]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  irb.14.pcl-cr02.plus.net [84.93.249.146]
  4    12 ms    11 ms    12 ms  ae1.ptw-cr02.plus.net [195.166.129.2]
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  a23-192-162-137.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [23.192.162.137]





New York
Code: [Select]
Tracing route to nyc.gov [161.185.30.156]over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    15 ms    11 ms    11 ms  lo0.14.central14.pcl-bng02.plus.net [195.166.130.155]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  irb.14.pcl-cr01.plus.net [84.93.249.145]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ae1.ptw-cr01.plus.net [195.166.129.0]
  5     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  6    77 ms    77 ms    77 ms  100ge1-1.core1.nyc4.he.net [72.52.92.166]
  7    77 ms    77 ms    77 ms  10ge4-1.core1.nyc5.he.net [184.105.213.218]
  8    77 ms    77 ms    77 ms  lightower-fiber-networks.10gigabitethernet3-2.co
re1.nyc5.he.net [216.66.50.106]
  9    77 ms    77 ms    78 ms  ae12.nycmnyzrj91.lightower.net [64.72.64.110]
 10    78 ms    78 ms    77 ms  ae14-0-nwrknjmdj91.lightower.net [104.207.214.76]
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.

Tokyo
Code: [Select]
Tracing route to www.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.164]over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  lo0.14.central14.pcl-bng02.plus.net [195.166.130.155]
  3    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  irb.14.pcl-cr01.plus.net [84.93.249.145]
  4    13 ms    12 ms    12 ms  195.99.126.96
  5    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  core4-te0-10-0-18.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.249.9]
  6    12 ms    12 ms    11 ms  peer2-et-8-3-0.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201.197]
  7    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  213.137.183.100
  8     *        *        *     Request timed out.
  9    12 ms    12 ms    12 ms  ldn001bb11.IIJ.Net [58.138.98.142]
 10   184 ms   184 ms   184 ms  tky001bb08.IIJ.Net [58.138.98.133]
 11   184 ms   184 ms   184 ms  tky001bf01.IIJ.Net [58.138.82.133]
 12   185 ms   185 ms   185 ms  tky008bb10.IIJ.Net [58.138.80.54]
 13   185 ms   185 ms   185 ms  tky008sdgw30.IIJ.Net [58.138.105.198]
 14   189 ms   188 ms   188 ms  tky008sdgw20a.IIJ.Net [210.138.115.66]
 15   185 ms   184 ms   185 ms  tky008sdgw21a.IIJ.Net [210.138.146.213]
 16     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 17   185 ms   185 ms   185 ms  www.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.164]

Sydney
Code: [Select]
Tracing route to www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au [210.193.213.177]over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.1.1
  2    27 ms    47 ms    34 ms  lo0.14.central14.pcl-bng02.plus.net [195.166.130.155]
  3    14 ms    11 ms    11 ms  irb.14.pcl-cr02.plus.net [84.93.249.146]
  4    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  ae1.ptw-cr02.plus.net [195.166.129.2]
  5    11 ms    19 ms    11 ms  10gigabitethernet5-1.core1.lon1.he.net [5.57.80.128]
  6    21 ms    24 ms    11 ms  10ge5-2.core1.lon2.he.net [72.52.92.222]
  7    78 ms    77 ms    77 ms  100ge1-1.core1.nyc4.he.net [72.52.92.166]
  8    82 ms    86 ms    82 ms  100ge11-1.core1.ash1.he.net [184.105.223.165]
  9   144 ms   144 ms   147 ms  100ge11-1.core1.lax1.he.net [184.105.80.202]
 10   152 ms   152 ms   148 ms  100ge11-1.core1.lax2.he.net [72.52.92.122]
 11   314 ms   315 ms   315 ms  tpg-internet-pty-ltd.10gigabitethernet7-7.core1.
lax2.he.net [74.82.9.154]
 12   345 ms   327 ms   327 ms  203-219-35-79.static.tpgi.com.au [203.219.35.79]
 13   327 ms   328 ms   328 ms  203-219-106-138.tpgi.com.au [203.219.106.138]
 14   339 ms     *        *     lag41.sclarinte01.aapt.net.au [202.10.14.201]
 15   352 ms   347 ms   327 ms  203-174-135-26.syd.static-ipl.aapt.com.au [203.174.135.26]
 16   327 ms   327 ms   327 ms  syd-hostingcore-b-xe-0-2-0.intellicentre.net.au [125.7.35.138]
 17   327 ms   327 ms   328 ms  TenGigE8-0-0.core1.cust.gw1.Sydney.intellicentre.net.au [125.7.4.113]

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waltergmw

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 09:12:42 AM »

@ Kitz,

The point which I failed to get over (in a rush before you took the site down) was that I believe Connecting Cumbria have no business to be quoting one set of ping times for three different exchanges and which the general public won't understand. IMHO they require the expected broadband speeds in Mbps. In Grasmere's case there are many in the small village centre still on EO lines in any case.

Kind regards,
Walter
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Black Sheep

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 11:18:30 AM »

Aw, c'mon Walter …… there's pedantic, and then there's pedantic, mate.

I don't see any issue with what that poster says, I'm pretty sure it passes the ASA's criteria as well. You say the general public "Wont understand" …… I can't see what isn't to understand, if anything it makes it easier for the GP to see what their getting.

If the poster had said 'Ping times', then I would take your point, but to have a sign-post giving timings to 3 different places makes it more-than-obvious what the advertiser is saying. I can tell you from absolute personal experience, there are just as many of the GP who don't have a clue what a mega-byte is !!.

I understand you are a representative for B4RN, but let their good work do the talking, let your advertising campaign win the crowd over. I think this is slightly nit-picking if I'm honest, but as always, it opens up debate which can't be a bad thing.  ;) ;D 
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Black Sheep

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 11:20:09 AM »

Whoops, forgot to add a PS ……. EO lines are being converted to Cab-fed every day. I haven't got the figures to hand but please take my word on this, it is happening.
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kitz

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 11:50:47 AM »

Quote
EO lines are being converted to Cab-fed every day

I taking a short cut and walking down the alley at the side of one of our local exchanges just last week and noticed a shiny new PCP cab had been installed up against the wall of the exchange building.

I note on Magenta all of the EO lines say not available, but I should imagine once they have wired up the internals, a fibre cab shouldnt be too long coming.  That particular exchange has some quite long lines, some of which not too many years were TPON or aluminium, both of which have now been sorted, delays were mostly due to not our own local council, but Blackpool Transport re crossing of the tram tracks.   I'm guessing that the new cab though will be for those EO lines which are mostly in or very near to the town centre/exchange of which there are several.   
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Black Sheep

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 12:47:47 PM »

Thanks for the info, Kitz. I can confirm one of our local Exchanges first had a Cab dropped on the E/O cable over 2yrs ago. Admittedly, it did take a good while longer for its sister-FTTC Cab to be put in place.

Point being, these things are happening, and misinformation could be a catalyst for unnecessary worry for those EU's fed by E/O ?.  :)
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kitz

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 12:50:20 PM »

Quote
here are just as many of the GP who don't have a clue what a mega-byte is !!.

I'm trying not to take any sides, but I think you are correct in that the GP will more likely understand the fact that they can reach the other side of the work in 235ms or whatever.   People like my parents have no concept of Mbps,  yet if I told dad his Skype session with his sister could reach Aus in 235ms, then he would understand that.

IMHO its quite a good way of explaining how good the Internet is, and I cant see that the figures are exaggerated.   Still not sure about using it specifically for 'Superfast' though.  :-\

Quote
The point which I failed to get over (in a rush before you took the site down) was that I believe Connecting Cumbria have no business to be quoting one set of ping times for three different exchanges.

In your rush did you upload a wrong image, because I think both are exactly the same and why I wondered if I'd missed something.
   
Latency wont vary much anyhow between many exchanges which are in the same general area. My latency is basically the same here as a friend who lives on the other side of Fylde cost and about 6 exchanges away.    It will make a difference though if you were comparing say an exchange in Aberdeen, to one near London docklands where most of the Telehouses are.   

Note on my tracert to smh.com.au how I was easily able to assume that their server is in one of the Telehouses: Thats because Plusnet's transit link is @ ptw-cr02 meaning Telehouse West and yet from ptw its taking <1ms to reach their server. 

If you can get from Manchester to London in about 8ms on the core, then a very rough approx is 1ms per 25 miles.    Using transatlantic cabling which is one long line rather than bouncing around lots of routers youre looking at 3500/66 = 53miles per millisecond from London to NYC.  Therefore anyone in the same general area wont see any difference in latency..  which is more likely affected by (ISP) routing and congestion.  If push came to shove then Workington may probably get say 1ms more latency than Kendal.

I dont expect people to fully understand latency, but most people can easily understand that something they say or type on the internet can reach someone on the other side of the globe in 235ms or 0.2 seconds
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kitz

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 12:59:13 PM »

Thanks for the info, Kitz. I can confirm one of our local Exchanges first had a Cab dropped on the E/O cable over 2yrs ago. Admittedly, it did take a good while longer for its sister-FTTC Cab to be put in place.

Point being, these things are happening, and misinformation could be a catalyst for unnecessary worry for those EU's fed by E/O ?.  :)

Have you seen any of these yet?

Combined PCP & FTTC cabinets
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Black Sheep

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 01:26:06 PM »

Thanks for the info, Kitz. I can confirm one of our local Exchanges first had a Cab dropped on the E/O cable over 2yrs ago. Admittedly, it did take a good while longer for its sister-FTTC Cab to be put in place.

Point being, these things are happening, and misinformation could be a catalyst for unnecessary worry for those EU's fed by E/O ?.  :)

Have you seen any of these yet?

Combined PCP & FTTC cabinets

Not personally, but have seen a picture of them somewhere amongst the plethora of on-line literature we get. The one I saw had the DSLAM and associated equipment running along the top of the Cab. I'm sure I've seen another picture that shows the same equipment housed to one side of the Cab also. Can't put my hands on them though right now ??

But, it's a good call, Kitz ..... as they were partly introduced for the E/O type scenario.  ;) :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 01:32:42 PM »

"I'm trying not to take any sides ......... "

I'm sure both Walter, as well as myself appreciate that you're not, Kitz.  ;) ;D

We all know our Walter is anti-incumbent ......... and for obvious reasons, I'm pro-incumbent. As such, if there weren't a difference of opinion at times, I'd begin to suspect foul-play !!  ;D ;D
Of course, having a difference of opinion doesn't follow that you have to loathe the individual, I have an immense liking for Walter and I'm sure he knows it. Even if he did admit to being a disturbed individual at the start of this thread. Did you miss the full-stop, Walter ??? Ha ha ....  ;) ;D ;D ;D
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burakkucat

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 04:59:12 PM »

I taking a short cut and walking down the alley at the side of one of our local exchanges just last week and noticed a shiny new PCP cab had been installed up against the wall of the exchange building.

I assume that is the alleyway and the exchange, of which I am aware?  :-\  Interesting developments.  :)
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kitz

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 07:26:28 PM »

Not my own nearby exchange, but the exchange where my SVLAN terminates. 
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burakkucat

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Re: Ill-informed SuperFarce marketing
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 07:49:45 PM »

Not my own nearby exchange, but the exchange where my SVLAN terminates.

Ah, that makes more sense. (And is not quite as interesting!)  ;D
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