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Author Topic: Major line problem  (Read 25742 times)

Azzaka

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2008, 08:27:52 AM »

Monday Morning and waiting for the results.
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mr_chris

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2008, 04:27:40 PM »

Yeah... waiting with baited breath here too... er... actually it's probably the garlic from last night :P
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2008, 06:23:35 PM »

Well the engineer came, couldn't get his hawk and laptop functioning properly,  consequently went back to lower tech methods.  Found a pair at the closest cab to my house that gave him a  sync at 2000, which was also 2000 at the house.  Said it was the best he could do as his manager was complaining he had spent too much time on the job (over the two hours) the weather wasn't helping him, it was totally foul.  He did say that the cab outside the house was scheduled for replacement at some time in the future.  It is a round steel? pillar about a meter high and about 30 cm in diameter and known to be a bit of a problem, evidently doesn't even have krone fittings.  The real bummer from my perspective is that at the next cab (green box) 600m away he was syncing at 7000. 

I'm a bit unsure about how to proceed.  It may well be that I'm on the best of a load of rubbish pairs, which doesn't make me any happier.   Anybody got any ideas.  I will complain to the high level faults team, but I don't know whether that will get me any further forward.

 
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Ezzer

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2008, 11:16:37 PM »

The Pillar you mention is probably an SCP.

Closer to an exchange cables fan out to poles and underground joints before getting to the premises. Further away one or more larger cables service a Primary connection point PCP/cab and the fan out the the proerties local to this kit. sometimes another cluster of properties may have another larger cable from the pcp servicing a secondary- or scp which tend to be smaller (or the pillar type you mention). A pending upgrade of such a pillar usually relates to the condition inside, they can be very cramped and arkward to work on and this typicaly dos'nt relate to any performance issues.

Usually the issue is what's avalable between the exchange to pcp,them from pcp to customer, by running via an scp this adds to the complication of getting the fault sorted hugely. as for the 2hour thing  :wall:

What next ? (need magic roundabout icon) :(
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2008, 10:28:21 AM »

The engineer also said it was a nightmare to work on the SCP.  I have had a response from Plusnet following the engineers visit.  I hadn't realised that the original pair swop was onto an aluminium pair.


Unfortunately we can not see any further problems or faults with your service. As requested we arranged for an engineer to be dispatched and re-arrange your line to a new pair. Although you were seeing a reduction in speed to previous times there was technically no fault with the service. The problem arose when BT moved you onto a aluminum pair rather than the faulty copper one you were on. This is enough to not show any degradation as far as telephone services are concerned however we are aware that the speed will be reduced for ADSL, the maximum an aluminium cable can offer is around 1mb.

Your line stats show a downstream attenuation of 54db, a sync speed of around 2mb is what we would expect of your line attenuation. The engineer that visited you found no issues with the cabling and confirmed all testing ok.

We have done all we can to improve your service as we arranged for the line to be moved back to a better pair. As you do not have a fault we can not take this matter any further.


Basically seem to be back to square one.  The line is sync'ing at 2000 but SN margins are down to 1-2dB during noisy afternoon night periods,  so my IP profile may well suffer.
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Azzaka

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2008, 11:32:42 AM »

More than likely it will.

The good news is you are on a decent line now, so depending what you want to do you now have a few more options.

I would suggest speaking with them, when the line degrades at that time of day so they can run the line tests to check it.

Leo
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2008, 05:49:17 PM »

The new pair has some interesting characteristics, it drops from time to time sometimes resync's at a 6dB margin, sometimes at 9dB ish.  The SN margin also moves around a lot down to 1-2dB in the evening then for unaccountable reasons goes up to 6dB then 9dB.  Not helping with IP profile which is still at 350K.  Overall it is looking like a rubbish line, sync'ing at 1600-2000 compared to 4500 historically. 

Overall I am disgusted with BT's approach to line quality.  Their position seems to be providing the line is stable and sync'ing above 400K then it is technically fault free and consequently not their problem.  It is totally immaterial that, historically, it may have sync'd at 3,4,5,6 meg.  I have been trying to get some confirmation of what the BTw policy is regarding DSL speed issues from the CEO's office, but have to date failed miserably, consequently drawing my own conclusions.  I can't think of any other industry that has this cavalier attitude.

To sum up BTw's position seems to be  - doesn't really matter if our infrastructure crumbles away because it only affects the customer and as they don't have any real alternatives we'll still rake in the line rental regardless.

Rant over
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graevine1

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2008, 06:57:41 PM »

I hope this is of assistance to you.
Max Terminology
One of the most confusing things about Max is not only that the speed varies, but that there are a whole load of technical terms for the different speeds and measurements that are made. The following should help make sense of the different terms you might come across.

Maximum Stable Rate (MSR)
During the first 10 days your connection will be given a value known as the Maximum Stable Rate (MSR). The MSR is the lowest sync speed (line rate) achieved in the first 10 days, not as the name somewhat confusingly suggests, the maximum sync at which the line was stable.

Here's an example. My new Max connection syncs at variable rates between 3 and 4Mbps. It's stable at 3Mbps but occasionally drops the connection at 4Mbps. If conditions change, perhaps I put in a phone extension or change the filters, I now see the modem synching unreliably at 256kbps and dropping every 5 minutes. I then replace all my filtering and the line returns to the previously seen pattern. In this instance my MSR would be 256kbps but I would probably see a stable 3Mbps download rate and synch at 3.5Mbps after the line had stabilised.

The MSR value is solely used to determine when a drop in sync speed would be considered a fault*. It is important to understand it is not a guarantee of speeds that you should expect for your 'up to 8Mb' connection and that Max is rate-adaptive, meaning your speeds will vary throughout the lifetime of your connection. We do not publish your MSR value as part of your Max service...think of it as for administrative purposes only. If you would like to see what data transfer speed you are receiving on your connection please see your BRAS Profile.

*BT will accept a fault report if the line rate drops by 20% or more from your established MSR, this is said to be below the Fault Threshold Rate. e.g. if the MSR during the first 10 days is determined as 5000kbps, a fault can be reported when your sync speed drops to 4000kbps or less.
Sync Speed (Line Rate)
Also known as Line Rate, the synchronisation (sync) speed is the speed at which your ADSL modem or router communicates with the BT Exchange. This is always higher than the speed at which data will actually be downloaded over the connection. The sync rate is determined by your phone line's characteristics, such as line length and quality. The shorter the line and the better the quality the faster the line will sync.

Throughput Speed (Data Rate)
The throughput speed is the maximum speed that data will transfer across the connection. The maximum throughput speed is always lower than the sync speed because the sync speed includes a certain amount of 'overhead data', this is essentially data that makes the connection work rather than the data that gets added on to the web pages and files you download.

I am lucky that I am able to borrow the appropriate equipment to monitor my lines and this sounds to me exactly that which I have on one of my lines ie. Crosstalk which causes intermittent noise you should be able to observe this using a Netgear DG834G Version 3 and Routerstats, ------ that will give almost the same result as the £40,000 quids worth of test gear Ive had on loan. Its sure going to be a big bill for BT when they get our bill for especially their incompetence , lies and threats.
Have a great day.

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roseway

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2008, 07:22:20 PM »

These terms are described more fully and accurately here and here.
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kitz

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2008, 07:26:53 PM »

I do fully sympathise with you mike - I too wouldnt be a happy bunny to find out that a prev syncing line of 4Mb+ and now you suddenly find yourself with a "carp pair" through no fault of your own.

AFAIK there isn't any standard set for adsl... and any documentation seems to revolve around the voice part of the line - not the dsl.

A downstream atten of 53dB should in theory be able to manage circa 3.5Mb throughput but obviously it is dependent on such things at the amount of SNR Margin and the Target Noise Margin on the line.. and obviously the quality of the "copper pair".

Judging from whats been said so far (and based on the stats that I have seen), it would appear that your local area is judged by BT as being "around 2Mb"...  the fact that theres now mention of aluminum youre now encountering the problem of many people with the joys of alu on their line :/
It would appear that previously you were "one of the lucky ones" and originally allocated a line with more copper in which is why it was performing above what is recorded for your area.

It wouldn't surprise me if once your old line had been swapped out for the voice fault, then it was soon after put back in service to someone else..  which is possibly why BT are saying they cant do anything else, since its possible that the only available pairs are those with alum on them.

I'm not really sure what to suggest to you Im afraid..  as an ex-adsl campaigner I became aware of one estate around here that couldn't get adsl at all due to alu.  It took BTw another 4 years to enable those residents and it was done by doing a "copper overlay".  The timescale was due to the huge expense of implementing the copper overlay cable to the estate.

What would I do if I were you?  I think first of all I would go on a fact-finding mission..  and see out what sort of speeds your neighbours and the surrounding area are getting.
1.  If you are getting much lower speeds than the surrounding lines - then IMHO I feel that you have a good case to trying the higher channels that youve already mentioned.
2.  If you new speeds are very similar to those than in the surrounding area then if you can all get together to campaingn to BT for better provision.  - The more the merrier as this helps add a bit more pressure.  This is what those in my area did.
3.  The fact that you previously had a decentish line also adds some credence as it shows what is possible

I'm disappointed that your ISP wasnt able to help you more.. particularly due to the fact that your original Fault Threshold rate has been breached. but if they are getting blocked by BTw then theres a limitation as to what they can do too. :/
Therefore I feel you have justification in trying the "higher channels" to see if they can help.
I'm not sure what the thinking is on the FTR and Maximum stable rate - because the new line will have undergone its own training and therefore have an entirely different MSR and FTR will have been set for the new line.

Roll on the days for FTTC and mini-dslams in the cabs.  I'd love it if the government gave some backing to this...

However in the current climate with OFCOM sticking its oar in the wrong places I can perhaps see why BT may be hesitant about a huge mammouth investment. - If OFCOM are later going to rule that BT then have to make these cabs available to other Telecom Cos who wish to cherrypick so they can make a profit, leaving BT the only company who has to pick up the tab for the expensive lines.. yet price-setting BT so that BT cant reduce their prices and therefore compete more fairly on the more profitable lines/exchanges... it doesnt take a genius to suss out that BT are going to think twice.
Whilst this ridiculous situation continues its only holding back the progress of adsl and making a two-teir broadband service.

/sorry mike end of rant..  I feel for you.


[edited to add - I hadnt seen grapvines reply when I started my post - but Im still posting it anyhow
Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.]
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kitz

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2008, 07:29:30 PM »

>> These terms are described more fully and accurately here and here.


I recognise the quoted ones immediately - I proof read it after James originally wrote it,  before it was published.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2008, 07:35:29 PM by kitz »
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2008, 09:27:54 PM »

I understand the bit about MSR,  but if, as in my case, you have a pair swop due to a line fault then it seems your are judged to have a new line, which has a different, and in my case, much lower MSR.  Hence no line fault, hence no problem (for BTw).   This is what sticks in my craw.  It gives them no incentive to maintain their infrastructure.  The customer takes the pain.  What compounds my ire is the fact that at the cab 600m away a 7meg sync can be achieved.

Thanks for the sympathy. 
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kitz

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2008, 09:50:40 PM »

>> Thanks for the sympathy.

Not much help really is it Im afraid..  I wish there was more that I could do for you...  and it is a real downer that for the sake of 600m

All I can do suggest is since it would appear that the ISP has taken it as far as they say they can, then would be to take the alternative measures I mentioned above.

There has been some instances where the Ben route has been successful.
Do you know what sort of stats your neighbours are getting.... are they in a similar situation?
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2008, 10:22:27 PM »

No don't know about the neighbours, next door are not on the internet, as they use ours.  People behind us go to a different exchange, even worse than ours.
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MikeS

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Re: Major line problem
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2008, 05:34:59 PM »

Well good news (fingers crossed).  After a few more emails I had another visit from Openreach today, who checked my line thoroughly from the exchange to the house. I'm now on a pair which give me a sync at 5000 at 6dB target SN margin (53dB line attenuation).   The reasons for the poor performance of the previous pair are unclear, it checked out as OK on their Hawk equipment but they found it slow to sync.  They speculated that it may be due to an old style connector somewhere on the pair (not too sure what an old style connector is, but apparently they perform badly on DSL lines).  They were talking of bringing in some specialist engineer/equipment to see if they could locate the problem.  All I have to do now is to wait to see how 'the new line' performs during the noisy evening period, as I'm prepared to drop 700 or so of sync to give me a stable connection I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll get back to my old performance levels.
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