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Author Topic: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.  (Read 266095 times)

kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #525 on: June 12, 2015, 11:00:56 PM »

Okay I promised I'd respond, but Im tired & aching and in need of a shower and food and my bed..  so it will be briefer than originally intended.  Perhaps a good job I didnt have time to reply earlier today otherwise I probably would have done a lot more ranting too.  :-X
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link
Quote from: AndyH
To be clear though, the profile update only removes the automatic application of upstream interleaving, where a line does not support retransmission in the upstream. It does not disable retransmission on lines that are capable of supporting it on the upstream.

This is FALSE.
  • It is not what we are seeing in reality. Line stats from our forum users and MDWS show that since 25th of May more than 20 lines which have had Mk2 G.INP rolled out they have had G.INP removed from the upstream.  All these lines use compatible g.inp equipment ie HG612 modems or Billion/Zyxel own routers.
  • We already knew long beforehand that the fix is to remove upstream interleaving for non-compatible modems - thats not new news
  • The screen shot of the DLM profiles provided by Andy does nothing to prove what he said. 
    Conversely it could prove what we noticed right from the start - ie that DLM now removes g.inp from the upstream if it thinks it doesnt need it.  Whether it is still using the 300MTBE as a decider or not isnt yet known  The option is still there as a possibility if DLM thinks it may benefit the line, and since G.INP is now a configurable parameter then it makes sense to me that they would use the same MTBE rules as previously for triggers.
  • Its yet another case of someone having information which has been (mis)interpreted to prove a point that is not fact.  Showing a list of available DLM parameters in itself, absolutely in no way shape or form confirms that g.inp will remain on the upstream for fully compatible g.inp modems, just that an upstream g.inp profile is available.  Its the equivalent of me showing the list of old DLM parameters and saying 'All lines are interleaved' just because some of the profiles mention interleaving  ???
  • I know I keep banging on about this - but it really is important to note the distinction between Interleaving, Error Protection & Error Correction (FEC) because they aren't the same thing.


I am sick and tired of certain people dissing members of this community for daring to suggest something isn't working as it should.  Let me state here and now that nothing that BlackSheep has ever said has EVER proved to be false and Im well sick to the back teeth how certain people have disregarded this community or its members though information that has either been mis-quoted elsewhere or someone has an agenda because information coming from here is not how they interpret information.  Without information coming from here and using tools by our community and some of us saying this is wrong... then you'd have the likes of Andy still quoting "It doesnt cause any degradation of the line", "How is it affecting your performance?" [to someone syncing 10Mb less and interleaving in the 40ms] and the best one yet "You keep going on about the modems being incompatible - they are compatible and have been tested for quite some time."

Openreach are partially to blame for this.  Information has been sparse and often confusing and sometimes what they say doesn't make total sense.  Some of you are aware I do have some information direct from Openreach but I have not released such information because IMHO it only muddies the water further until I get proper clarification.  Note to all the nay-sayers - this doesnt come from BS, but someone very high up in Openreach who should know what is going on.  However, things are now slowly beginning to fit together and if you take what users are seeing, the information that I do have, plus the list of new profiles.

It would appear that Openreach has rejigged the available profiles.  The full list isnt there, but we can see things like what appear to be  what could be used in the following circumstances [& obviously depending on line conditions]

- Section 1. The open profile,
- Section 2. A sample profile for a line whose equipment doesnt support g.inp and an example of what previously happened by default if the modem was g.inp incompatible
- Section 3. This is interesting - Note how ReTX is available for upstream only - I want to see the full list of profiles before commenting further.
- Section 4.  Huawei cabs - ReTX applied by default for downstream with the new available upstream profiles. Note how upstream reTX is still available.  Note the absense of any interleaving. Note Error Protection off (probably not the same as Error Correction)

I suspect there will be more available profiles and why I wont comment further until Im sure, but it does appear to back up what we have suspected since the 25th of May, that interleaving has been removed from the upstream, but that DLM can also turn off g.inp if it thinks it doesnt need it... but the option is still there if the line does.

This is why I told mikelj to hold fire, because DLM may adjust later to add it.  I have seen some lines whereby they do adjust over a few days and although Ive yet to actually see one get g.inp turned back on, it looks like the possibility is still there, so I suggest leaving for a while to see what happens.   Those lines where it was switched off completely and have stayed that way appear to be below the MTBE threshold so DLM may be happy to keep it like that and satisfied that there are insufficient errors to apply further DLM intervention.  It will be interesting to watch what happens with mikeljs line.


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PS

Meant to add - G.INP isnt always a good thing and doesn't necessarily work well on all lines - could ramble on more but will let ASSIA do the talking.
Quote
With retransmission, a line experiencing frequent noise bursts can suffer significant throughput degradation.
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #526 on: June 12, 2015, 11:30:38 PM »

Those profiles are for  the 40/10 & 40/2 variants are the 80/20 the same or not ? what VDSL products are 10M and 1.3M profiles for ?
Shouldn't the profiles read the same or similar to this 0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off ?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 11:37:53 PM by tommy45 »
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #527 on: June 12, 2015, 11:40:33 PM »

Should be, but why I want to see the full list.  Those are basically banded to 10Mb...  so for a line capable of syncing at 80/20 it will show something like
Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

The list looks like its showing the stages of DLM progression it can go through ie
Error Protection off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High

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burakkucat

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #528 on: June 12, 2015, 11:45:40 PM »

link

What a mess. What a muddle. What a load of speculation. What a collection of wishful thinking.  >:(
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #529 on: June 12, 2015, 11:57:01 PM »

btw I think 'Error Protection OFF" may be a tad misleading.

I think by that they mean forms of Error Protection which could encompass INP & G.INP.  It may be separate to Forward Error Correction.

Need someone who has had g.inp Mk2 rolled out and who can give me their profile and full linestats please to confirm.  Anyone available to provide this info for me please?
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #530 on: June 13, 2015, 12:00:11 AM »

Should be, but why I want to see the full list.  Those are basically banded to 10Mb...  so for a line capable of syncing at 80/20 it will show something like
Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

The list looks like its showing the stages of DLM progression it can go through ie
Error Protection off > Retransmission Low > Retransmission High
and that is the same profile for my line but error correction is most certainly ON, So their botch named fix doesn't work as intended, assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is, I am somewhat sceptical due to the secrecy by BT Do they think  that all EU's are fools and won't know any better ? Kitz you already have had my stats following the botch rolled out on my circuit, re the thread i started  about the loss of nearley 2mbps from the upstream as a direct result of G.inp and or the Fix botch rollout
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:05:23 AM by tommy45 »
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #531 on: June 13, 2015, 12:04:59 AM »

Quote
assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is

Your post possibly crossed with my last one.  Note the difference between Error Protection and Error Correction

Also one of the reasons why Ive been harping on recently about the need to separately clarify Interleaving and Error Correction separately.  Error Correction is FEC which we know they apply silently by default regardless if interleaving is applied or not.  INP and G.INP are forms of Error Protection that can modify the amount of Error Correction (& Interleave if need be). 
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #532 on: June 13, 2015, 12:09:39 AM »

Quote
assuming they intended it to have error correction off  that is

You post possibly crossed with my last one.  Note the difference between Error Protection and Error Correction

Also one of the reasons why Ive been harping on recently about the need to separately clarify Interleaving and Error Correction separately.  Error Correction is FEC which we know they apply silently by default regardless if interleaving is applied or not.  INP and G.INP are forms of Error Protection that can modify the amount of Error Correction (& Interleave if need be).
So a less confusing and more open & honest way of wording the profile i'm on would be upstream error correction ON or Low or High ? instead of saying to obvious error protection is OFF just a thought , although i think the fast path profile did refer to fec being on, in that it said about error correction being on ,Openreach, what a mess and tangled web they keep on weaving God help us all if they ever decide to roll out vectoring , G fast would mean new hardware to EU's , although vectoring  would be pushing the current hardware to it's limits as it can only support 100mbps in theory
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:14:41 AM by tommy45 »
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #533 on: June 13, 2015, 12:20:22 AM »

Quote
but error correction is most certainly ON

You edited you post while I made mine and I didn't see that till just now.   I strongly suspected it would be and that Error Correction is most certainly different from Error Protection. 

It dawned on me when I was closely reading through the Openreach info and I noted the term 'Error Protection' was being used by him when he meant ReTransmission/G.INP.  Like I said things are beginning to clear... its like putting together a large jigsaw  ???

I therefore think we can safely assume that in this case "Error Protection OFF" means G.INP is off.  BUT Error Correction (FEC) will be enabled by default as per it was previously on the upstream. 
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #534 on: June 13, 2015, 01:09:47 AM »

Except that the level of FEC is higher than it was /is when in fast path mode, So should really display that ,perhaps their omittion of this is an indication of them trying to wriggle off the hook when complaints start rolling in again when those who would normally sync at or under the max rate , but we know that BT don't give a stuff about upstream sync or throughput
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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #535 on: June 13, 2015, 11:45:35 AM »

kitz yeah I have been telling andyh its false on the forums, but noone is backing me up overthere, so I just look like a raving lunatic :)

When I posted about him here, sorry if I didnt make it clear, but I did not post it as a fact, rather just as his (and openreach's claim?).  I defenitly disagree with what he said, and his affiliation with the BT group seems a bit more clear now as when I suggested to him to use his high level access to tell them they wrong he did a blunt corporate reply to tell people to report via the usual channels which we all know is useless.

I cant say everything I know regarding ofcom sadly but what I can say is ofcom are not happy currently about whats happening with the retail side of the market, they not happy about not a single isp passing on the wholesale changes of 1 month min terms for FTTC (hence the new changes regarding poor performance) and they also not happy with the current DLM situation where not a single isp even aaisp is passing on information.  Instead customers are spending their own money to buy new compatible modems, which believe me ofcom has not taken lightly.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 11:52:35 AM by Chrysalis »
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mikelj

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #536 on: June 13, 2015, 11:48:23 AM »

Need someone who has had g.inp Mk2 rolled out and who can give me their profile and full linestats please to confirm.  Anyone available to provide this info for me please?

Does this help?
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #537 on: June 13, 2015, 11:54:36 AM »

Cheers mikelj.

Yep it was the info provided in your line stats I was after which shows Error Correction in use thankyou, and also the DLM line profile which looks something like

Quote
0.128M-80M Downstream, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

However, Tommy provided that info last night and I was able to see his stats from router from the other thread.

I needed to just double check that Error correction is being used with G.INP mk2 separately from Error Protection.

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Chrysalis

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #538 on: June 13, 2015, 11:56:08 AM »

Also kitz it may help to release the information you have to see if the community can put the pieces together, the withholding of information by all the parties involved is what's caused this mess.

Here is a quote from ofcom

Quote
Because of this we have realised our past approach has been ineffective in recent months and we will now take a new approach in our aim to increase competition and transparency to consumers, This includes directly tackling the lack of inclusion of line rental on broadband prices, and the lack of information to consumers in regards to compatible equipment and line profiling.
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #539 on: June 13, 2015, 11:59:38 AM »

Actually, whilst typing I should also mention that

Quote
0.128M-20MUpstream, Error Protection Off

can't necessarily be taken to mean that G.INP is or isnt enabled.  I think this is where the PN reps may have been getting confused about whether G.INP was on or not.. because exactly the same profile can also be used for ECI cabs.   On non-G.INP cabs (ECI's):  Error Protection Off means INP = OFF.
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