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Author Topic: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.  (Read 281027 times)

burakkucat

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #165 on: April 24, 2015, 07:58:41 PM »

Mr Cat .... I wonder how those PM's may have begun  ;) :) :)

It started with a simple request "Did I know the model of Exfo HHT that has been issued to some Openreach technicians?" (Paraphrased.)  :)
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #166 on: April 24, 2015, 08:57:22 PM »

BS.   I deliberately didnt want to drag you into a conversation because I know that you will only tell us things as and when you are able to :)

My niggles revolved around why the SP's werent getting proper line info for non g.inp routers, which got me thinking about SELT tests.  The niggle was also there knowing that there had to be a linecard swapout on some Huawei cabs due to "incompatible tests" and having to be replaced with VCMM cards.  So I was aware that something seemed to be going wrong somewhere. 
I resorted to asking b*cat if he could recall which model of EXFO that the OR engineers used.  It's already known that the JDSU's can use either BCM or IFTN SIMs.

Ive yet got to read the info ISPr..  so no doubt will have something to say about that in a moment.   :D
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burakkucat

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #167 on: April 24, 2015, 09:25:34 PM »

Quote
I resorted to asking b*cat if he could recall which model of EXFO that the OR engineers used.

And to save interested parties having to ask, my reply was "Exfo AXS-200/635".  :)

Currently there are two available on eBay, as "buy it now" items --

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261865040074
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331169795241
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #168 on: April 24, 2015, 09:37:37 PM »

maybe the JDSU needs a firmware update  ;D

The HST-3000 uses lots of  'modules' that are interchangeable.  It can come with a Broadcom SIM or Infineon SIM.  Whether the Infineon modules will eventually be upgraded via a firmware update or not is unknown but I should imagine at one point it will be.

However, I think the quickest solution for BT would be to swap out the SIM.  The difficulty could be getting hold of a large number all at once.
Ive no idea about any other test gear involved.

Quote
"Exfo AXS-200/635"

Which appear to use BCM chipsets

Based on industry-leading Broadcom DSL chipset for proven VDSL2 and ADSL2+ interoperability and support for impulse noise protection (INP) and Broadcom PhyR™ confi gurations
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #169 on: April 24, 2015, 09:38:20 PM »

Looks like Max was right!
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #170 on: April 24, 2015, 10:03:40 PM »

ISPReview have posted some news: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/04/bt-openreach-briefs-uk-fttc-fibre-broadband-isps-on-g-inp-issues.html

Shame they stated that the firmware update fixes the issue on ECI modems!

Thanks jelv, but have they edited that because I cant see it.   In fact I cant see anything about what they are going to do with the ECI's & HH5A's

Some of the items reported also seem a little strange.

Quote
....that did not appear to include proper support for G.INP, which also impacted a few of Openreach’s ECI modems.

Few?  Isnt it all ECI's?   The number of ECI's in circulation would be approximately half of lines installed prior to 2015.   What about the fairly large proportion of BT retail customers who have a HomeHub 5A.   No mention of a resolution :(

Quote
ECI equipment (either modems or DSLAMS) doesn’t currently support upstream retransmission.
From what we have seen with the HH5A & ECIs &  TD-W9980 it wasnt supporting upstream or downstream.

Quote
increasing upstream latency by approx. 8ms.

Most saw increases of 16ms indicating that both upstream and downstream latency was affected.
We saw some cases rise to the 40/50's indicating again that retx high being applied and was affecting both up and downstream.

Quote
We have not yet started the rollout for the ECI infrastructure as we are investigating a minor issue with our hand held testers.

If you visit a customer on an ECI cab and your equipment doesn't work, I hardly think its minor.  As mentioned several times, I suspected something bigger was afoot this will be it.  This is a major reason why the roll out had to stop.


I'm glad that we have got some answers, but there is still an awful lot of things that we dont have an answer to :(

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WWWombat

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #171 on: April 24, 2015, 10:25:45 PM »

Ive yet got to read the info ISPr..  so no doubt will have something to say about that in a moment.   :D

I've just been reading the ISPr article, and I think it leaves me with more questions than answers...

- Does the increase in latencies that have been seen in the wild really correspond to the fallback diagram? Those would suggest a total of between 16 and 24ms, worst case, but I thought we've had numbers higher than 30ms reported.

- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

- The fallback mechanism, combined with the fact that DLM now seems very trigger-happy to apply one of the retransmission profiles to all and sundry, would explain the issues we've seen, providing we can get the numbers to match.

- There is no mention of what equipment is incompatible, apart from that mention of ECI upstream. With the work we've seen from Lantiq and TP-Link, I'm surprised we don't see more indications - but perhaps that will come from a BTW briefing.

- What do the 13ms and 18ms values refer to in the retransmission profiles? My guess is that these values are the new "maximum delay" that determine how many retries are allowed.

- Does the fact that ECI DSLAMs don't support G.INP upstream mean that, once they're included in the rollout, every subscriber connected to them (including both Huawei and ECI modems) will fallback to a "interleaving low" profile upstream? Thus forcing an 8ms latency hike upstream on everyone?

- This might answer Kitz's niggle: if the new fallback profiles are actually new ones that act like the "interleaving xxx" ones, but are named internally to something different (perhaps to prevent DLM from cycling back to a G.INP replacement); but separately, the results available to ISPs like Zen don't know what to display for these profiles; we could get the situation we've had reported - no description of the line profile.

- From the mention of the key error statistic - under 1 ES per hour - I think we can assume that this remains an important statistic, even with G.INP active. It tells me that their target, especially for IPTV quality, is still written in terms of the rate of ES.

Time for a beer...

edit: add a couple of clarifications for upstream-only to one point.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:30:38 PM by WWWombat »
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jelv

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #172 on: April 24, 2015, 10:43:32 PM »

Thanks jelv, but have they edited that because I cant see it.

They've removed a whole chunk where they said about the DLM reset!
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #173 on: April 24, 2015, 10:48:33 PM »

I totally agree with you wombat, there are far too many unanswered questions that dont seem to tackle some of the main issues for the EU's.

Quote from: wwwombat
Those would suggest a total of between 16 and 24ms, worst case, but I thought we've had numbers higher than 30ms reported.

We have. 

Quote from: wwwombat
The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

- The fallback mechanism, combined with the fact that DLM now seems very trigger-happy to apply one of the retransmission profiles to all and sundry, would explain the issues we've seen, providing we can get the numbers to match

I agree (see my post above).  It doesnt quite tie in with what we have seen.   The increase in latency would imply that both upstream and downstream are being affected.

Quote
There is no mention of what equipment is incompatible, apart from that mention of ECI upstream. With the work we've seen from Lantiq and TP-Link, I'm surprised we don't see more indications - but perhaps that will come from a BTW briefing

Very disappointing for those EUs stuck with a HH5A and ECI modems.   Also the beginnings of a two tier broadband service, people on ECI are getting a raw deal.  No idea what the real issue is, but the information that IFTN cant support upstream is also a little odd.   Presumably that is the IFTN chips in the ECI cabs.

So are they saying that users on ECI cabs are going to be stuck with a default interleaved profile that cant be turned off regardless of what equipment they use :(  According to the table that is 8ms upstream for those on ECI's.   This will not please a lot of people.  Its a damn good job they didnt roll it out.




Weve seen that TP-link and Lantiq appear to have managed something - actually Im going to take this over to the TPlink/G.INP thread later because theres more I'd now like to query.
 
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NewtronStar

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #174 on: April 24, 2015, 11:20:32 PM »

- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

I did notice the Billion 8800NL has phyr turned off on the US by default could that also be related to the above  :-\
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #175 on: April 24, 2015, 11:51:41 PM »

When i was using the ECI modem last, the line had been interleaved on the ds only 7-8ms and the usual loss of around 8-10mbps of sync (ds only ) on the 14th day when i was expecting a return to fastpath  i was G.inp ed latency increased further to around 27-28ms from 19-20ms and ds sync reduced further, and upstream throughput was impacted too for some reason,
Not happy with this i swapped modems to the HG612 and could see that interleave was applied to both DS and US a day or 2 later  re synced and was G.inp enabled full sync and low latency again They IMO are clueless

Also the remote GEA tests from my ISP do not show any indication that my connection is G.inp enabled , it does report that the us has interleaved low though, which is incorrect
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:59:31 PM by tommy45 »
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adslmax

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #176 on: April 25, 2015, 12:00:03 AM »

I told you so. That's the ECI cabinet roll out with g.inp won't be happen now. Next stage for Joe Garner will email me end of this month.
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loonylion

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #177 on: April 25, 2015, 12:05:47 AM »

- The report suggests that ECI modems can support G.INP downstream, but not upstream. This ought to imply that most cases of extra latency should only be 8ms, coming from fallback of just the upstream.

I did notice the Billion 8800NL has phyr turned off on the US by default could that also be related to the above  :-\

it appears the majority of modems have it turned off on US by default, presumably because its optional and therefore not all DSLAMs will support it.
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tommy45

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #178 on: April 25, 2015, 12:22:03 AM »

Quote
Openreach have also advise me this afternoon that they intend to run a trial next week (w/c 25/4/15) on a small set of lines; where devices aren’t retransmission compatible in the upstream to see if changing certain parameters removes the latency and maintains the other benefits of retransmission. The exact date lines will be trialled has yet to be confirmed.
Would appear to be their next step, So maybe they are going to test a new firmware?  maybe they have copied tp link's beta fw
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kitz

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Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #179 on: April 25, 2015, 12:25:07 AM »

I told you so. That's the ECI cabinet roll out with g.inp won't be happen now. Next stage for Joe Garner will email me end of this month.

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15283.msg284195.html#post_updates
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