Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 56 57 [58] 59 60 ... 62

Author Topic: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.  (Read 271849 times)

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #855 on: April 17, 2016, 12:53:56 PM »

Sadly we are not their direct customers, they probably have provided information to the CP's.  But the CP's are witholding the information either due to NDA or their own doing.

I agree with you its wrong but this is the situation we have now with the current market structure.

It's not wrong at all. Virgin Media don't give updates on all their trials to the customer base either.

It's none of your, or my, business what Openreach are doing with regards to G.inp. If our services are working as contracted we've no recourse.

Should Virgin Media be notifying customers when they test new CMTS, channel plans, modulation schemes, bonding groups, etc?

I could happily tell the people in this local area how many upstream and downstream channels are in use, the equipment that sources those downstream channels and receives those upstream channels, when the architecture is planned to go full CCAP, the local network frequency ranges, subsplit, and how many homes passed per node the network was built with.

Do normal customers have a 'right' to know this? Does it matter as long as they are receiving the service as advertised?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 12:57:04 PM by Ignitionnet »
Logged
-----
Deploying better networks, not just faster ones.

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 3219
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #856 on: April 17, 2016, 05:42:06 PM »

I think that if customers are actually on a trial then they have a right to know, otherwise no we don't have a right to know.
Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 390/36  ;D

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5748
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #857 on: April 17, 2016, 05:57:00 PM »

Very true we are not direct clients but our ISP's are. The ISP's have a right to know what is planned and in turn so are we from our ISP's.

Utopian I know and we are talking about OR here, who let's face it aren't at all forthcoming due to the monopoly they have.

Openreach are generally transparent with their direct customers, BTWholesale, TalkTalk, Sky, etc. Ofcom would string them up if they weren't.

You have no right to know what is planned and no right to information Openreach give their customers in confidence. You have the right to be provided the service your provider contracted to provide you.

you contradict yourself ignition.

In term's of the relationship between openreach and their customer's and the isp with their customer's there should be no difference.

Meaning if ofcom obliges openreach to inform isp's of trial's, the areas, the customers affected and so forth, then surely the isp has to have the same obligation with their own customers.  Yes this doesnt mean they should have to post full reports of all trial's but they should be obligated to contact the customers directly affected by trials.  Otherwise this is a double standard.

Also I dont see anything in the major isp's t&c's about allowing them to run speculative trial's of experimental services on their customer lines without notice.

I think there is 2 factors here allowing this to happen, the artificial strcuture which separates openreach from the end user, this makes it very difficult for any legal challenge to take place.  e.g. what if openreach have told the isp's they under NDA and as such enforcing them to not tell their own customer's, this NDA would be what needed challenging but because end user's have no contract with openreach they couldnt make such a challenge.  In that case it would be the isp's agreeing to terms which make their own contracts illegal that need challenging.

There is also the matter of 'best effort'.  Best effort generally means anyone on the best effort service has the same specification technology as others on the same sold product, those who do not can challenge it is not 'best effort' this is the loophole that non g.inp customers could use e.g. to challenge the technical difference in service received, although the only success likely achieved would be a penalty free exit from contract which wouldnt achieve much other than been banned by an isp as a customer.

You cant have a wholesaler obligated to tell the retailer but not have the same obligation further down the chain, legality doesnt work like that.

Of course the legal loophole i mentioned for 'best effort' will be exactly why this is all hush hush, as after all if customers dont know whats going on they are hardly likely to be upset. 

I think I am going to bring this up with revk on his blog and see what his answer is in regards to the secrecy.  I am very interested to know if its a CP decision or an openreach enforced NDA.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 06:00:02 PM by Chrysalis »
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5748
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #858 on: April 17, 2016, 06:06:56 PM »

Sadly we are not their direct customers, they probably have provided information to the CP's.  But the CP's are witholding the information either due to NDA or their own doing.

I agree with you its wrong but this is the situation we have now with the current market structure.

It's not wrong at all. Virgin Media don't give updates on all their trials to the customer base either.

It's none of your, or my, business what Openreach are doing with regards to G.inp. If our services are working as contracted we've no recourse.

Should Virgin Media be notifying customers when they test new CMTS, channel plans, modulation schemes, bonding groups, etc?

I could happily tell the people in this local area how many upstream and downstream channels are in use, the equipment that sources those downstream channels and receives those upstream channels, when the architecture is planned to go full CCAP, the local network frequency ranges, subsplit, and how many homes passed per node the network was built with.

Do normal customers have a 'right' to know this? Does it matter as long as they are receiving the service as advertised?

in my line of business if I started running experimental configurations on my customer's services without even telling them I would be in a lot of bother.  That is just not how you treat customers paying your wages.  It seems people with ties to the uk broadband sector have a shocking attitude to this issue, they seem to think because the whole industry is doing it then it must be ok.

Also I have read the t&c of a few isp's and yes they dont permit what is happening here, there is no mention of running speculative experimental services without informing the customer, they are also sold as best effort which in turn makes split services such as g.inp for some and not for others also questionable.

If you are right, then you need to explain why is it not ok for openreach to not tell the CP's?

I will give you a clear example.

Customers pays for 'up to 76mbit' broadband, sold on a best effort basis.  They are given an speed estimate when they order. 

Technologies such as g.inp can improve the speed by removing the need for performance reduction modes such as interleaving and banding, as a result g.inp has a direct impact on the best effort of providing up to speeds.  This would only be irrelevant to a customer who is in one of two situations.
They are on fast path 'and' not getting enough errors to impact performance.
They are syncing at max sync speed 'and' not getting enough errors to impact performance.
Now the isp could argue g.inp is not a commercial rollout and is a trial and as such isnt included in best efforts, but then they fail in that they have not informed the customer they on experimental technology.

If I had this mindset you are suggesting, then I could sell a upto 30mbit service, provided by bonding 2 adsl lines, and it wouldnt matter I dont disclose this because apparently the technology used isnt relevant.

--edit--

Someone has just now kindly confirmed there is no openreach enforced NDA, meaning this is a CP decision to keep it quiet.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 06:20:52 PM by Chrysalis »
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

CarlT

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1121
  • Next generation network design and deployment
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #859 on: April 17, 2016, 06:31:13 PM »

Someone has just now kindly confirmed there is no openreach enforced NDA, meaning this is a CP decision to keep it quiet.

I'm not going to bother discussing the rest but this is demonstrably untrue. They don't put the attached in documents for fun.
Logged
-----
Deploying better networks, not just faster ones.

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5748
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #860 on: April 17, 2016, 06:32:51 PM »

I was only reporting what I was told, check tbb for the source.

So thank you for confirming otherwise, we can end the speculation now if this is the CPs fault or BT.

This is indeed a tricky situation for end users, as BT are protected by the fact they dont deal directly with end users, and an isp can argue their hands are tied.
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 32080
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #861 on: April 18, 2016, 06:06:26 PM »

Some info is covered by NDA, some info will be confidential and some info they make available but the ISPs dont bother to pass info on.
There are plenty of docs out there that are marked confidential, but not everything is. 

With DLM for example, much of the info is (or was) available on their portal but its scattered across so many other documents that quite often the ISPs dont want to take the time and effort to bother trying to understand it or explain it themselves as it means trawling through stuff.
Its piece-meal that you have to try put together.  Chris from Plusnet tried, and one of the guys from Zen started to piece things together too.

Many ISPs (and Openreach) just assume that the average customer doesnt want to know.   Particularly some of the larger ones, even their front line staff dont know whats going on, because its not passed down from above.   It's their job to deal with questions that already have answers up on the screen.   This is what happens when you get cheap broadband and the support agents dont even know what things like attenuation is.   Wasn't always like this.  :(

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5748
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #862 on: April 18, 2016, 06:44:16 PM »

yep I can confirm sky support are never made aware of trials etc,. and I expect that to be the case with the vast majority of tech support staff from most isp's it will likely only be senior technical staff who will keep track of this sort of stuff.
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

Busa

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #863 on: April 21, 2016, 06:49:20 PM »

Well after another OR visit today they have managed to make my line even worse and according to DSLStats half my tones seem to have vanished too, any idea what is going on here please?

I've now dropped from a line speed of some 54Mbps to just over 43Mbps in two visits and still no sign of G.INP back on my cab. Interestingly the OR guys actually told me they are not even told about G.INP, that's four OR personnel so far have told me this.
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4943
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #864 on: April 21, 2016, 06:59:02 PM »

They are told of G.INP . but the way they word it as 'Re-transmission'. Take it from me, we've had quite a bit of notification about it, nowhere near enough about the potential issues, incompatibilities, etc .. but that's how we roll. Which is why I come on here to get the experts view on what the hell it is I work on every day.  ;) ;D

That is not sarcasm, it's the truth.
Logged

Busa

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #865 on: April 21, 2016, 07:32:10 PM »

Well yes they knew about it, although not what it does. They all advised me they are not told it has gone live at all on any cabs they are working on.

They are however masters at reducing my line speeds.  ::)
Logged

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4943
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #866 on: April 21, 2016, 08:11:50 PM »

 :lol: :lol: ^^^^. That made me actually LOL.  :)
Logged

Busa

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #867 on: April 21, 2016, 08:52:02 PM »

I wish I had the same sense of humour, well actually I did until the last two OR visits.  ;)

Getting back to my issue of missing tones, can anyone explain to me why these seem to have vanished?

I've also noticed Attenuation is up and the Pwr (dBm) levels have also dropped since todays OR feat of doing the exact opposite of what they were requested to do, that being increase my upload (they reduced that) and get my download back to the level it was at before the last DLM reset on 11/04/16 (they didn't they reduced that too).  :o

On the plus side Virgin are currently installing their network in my street.
Logged

Dray

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2362
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #868 on: April 21, 2016, 08:59:32 PM »

Noise on the line could have eliminated your missing tones. Or a line fault.
Logged

Busa

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: G.INP - BT rollout 2015.
« Reply #869 on: April 21, 2016, 09:08:02 PM »

Thanks for that, so the so called "Broadband Engineer" obviously needs some training.

Worse still he told me he had a quick job to go to but he would be back to check on mine. He called me an hour later and when I told him it was worse he told me he wasn't coming back!

As a Chartered Engineer myself I have zero faith in OR, I do however digress.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 56 57 [58] 59 60 ... 62
 

anything