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Author Topic: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?  (Read 5355 times)

Bowdon

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Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« on: May 26, 2015, 07:35:13 PM »

I'm wondering can an area that is at the moment listed as FTTC, is it possible for FTTP to be offered in that area?

What is the structure of FTTP ? What does Openreach look for in an area to make it affordable over regular FTTC?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2015, 07:45:27 PM »

You need to speak with your ISP .........

http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/faq/ ............ scroll down to 'Fibre Technology'.
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kitz

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2015, 10:20:33 PM »

You may be interested in this page which gives an overview of both FTTP and FTTPoD.

As regards to FFTPoD the network layout is slightly different from FTTP in that it uses the FTTC nodes and then lays fibre to the premises.  Theres also some FTTP and FTTPoD diagrams on the main site which shows BT's Fibre Network.
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GigabitEthernet

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2015, 10:48:07 PM »

I believe the FTTPoD rollout is suspended indefinitely.

The prices are ridiculous for it, to be honest.
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Bowdon

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 03:03:31 PM »

Thanks for the pages guys. Very good information.

Would I be right in thinking that FTTP or FTTPoD is delivered if a fibre line running to the cabinet passes near the property? or does the FTTP/oD connect differently i.e. does it come off the main fibre lines underground (so it would come direct from the 'feed' instead of coming through a cabinet feed)?

I've noticed that the cabinet near my house isn't fibre upgraded. I actually connect to a cabinet quite a walk away. If the cabinet near by was upgraded to fibre, would that increase my chance of FTTP/oD being offered?

As an aside note I noticed that when I typed in my details on the CodeLook website all cabinets upgraded by BT/Openreach up to March 22nd 2014 are ECI's. I'm on cabinet P24. But Cabinet P36 to be upgraded on 30th of June 2015 by the BDUK Manchester project is going to be Huawei. I wonder if they slowed down installing ECI fibre cabinets for a while?

On the subject of FTTP/oD, I think the biggest downer about paying for it is the line rental which seems to come in at a few hundred 's per month. As well as the original lump sum payment. To be honest I can't see why there is a need to be paying a few hundred 's a month (+ whatever the ISP charges you for the service). It's like when I put in an ethernet cable in my house, it doesn't need constant work on it. Couldn't maybe a higher call out charge be used instead of a regular 'rent'?

I think if they dropped the fibre line rental and just had the lump sum then more people would order FTTP/oD. Though I'm thinking more demand for the service would cause other issues too.

I know I've mentioned this on other threads but when I'm hearing about fibre in the US, it seems to be mostly FTTP. I know its a slower roll out nationally over there, and I do think our network, ISP's and structure is a LOT better than in the US's. It's with that in mind that I feel puzzled as to why they can pick a town and start putting up FTTP immediately. I'm not even sure if they have an FTTC structure. How do they setup FTTP so fast per town?
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loonylion

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 06:12:26 PM »

ADSL in america is delivered from the street cabinet. I believe. So even out in the sticks you get the full 8mbit.
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kitz

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2015, 10:31:30 AM »

Quote
If the cabinet near by was upgraded to fibre, would that increase my chance of FTTP/oD being offered?

afaik its supposed to be your cab.  Fibre of demand is just an easier (and cheaper) way for BT to get fibre all the way to the premises as it uses the same fibre optic link between the cab and OLT as is used for FTTC.  As mentioned on the main site they are not connected by a dedicated FTTP network.  For the FTTPoD a new fibre cable is laid between the cab and the home for the use of broadband only.  The copper will still be there for telephony use and why it still needs to be the same cab.

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As an aside note I noticed that when I typed in my details on the CodeLook website all cabinets upgraded by BT/Openreach up to March 22nd 2014 are ECI's. I'm on cabinet P24. But Cabinet P36 to be upgraded on 30th of June 2015 by the BDUK Manchester project is going to be Huawei. I wonder if they slowed down installing ECI fibre cabinets for a while?

BT appear to have stopped ordering new ECI cabs late in 2013, obviously there will have been some still in the system, but its possibly no co-incidence that at about that time it was realised the difficulties with the ECI M41s and vectoring, compared to Huawei. 

Quote
On the subject of FTTP/oD, I think the biggest downer about paying for it is the line rental which seems to come in at a few hundred 's per month.

Most will agree there with you, it is very expensive compared to dedicated FTTP.  It also has a long tie in period (3yrs iirc). :(

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when I'm hearing about fibre in the US, it seems to be mostly FTTP

That is because (unlike the UK) 'Fibre' is proper FTTP and they dont call FTTC or VDSL 'fibre'. 
FTTC isnt really Fibre Broadband - See Fibre Optic Broadband which isn't!.   Afaik there's only really the UK that does this - thanks to ASA not nipping it in the bud in 2007.

Interestingly Verizon sold off its FTTP network just last week.  Verizon started building a true FTTP network (compared to FTTC & HFC/cable) a few years ago, but I dont think it went as well financially as they would have hoped and they stopped further rollout. - link.  Google may be the one to watch when it comes to Fibre in the US, but even they are only doing a few large cities.   Other than a few smaller operators then in the states its FTTC/FTTN/HFC that is being used, but they (correctly) arent ever advertised as 'Fiber'.

Quote
I believe the FTTPoD rollout is suspended indefinitely.

Has it? I thought it was being suspended for a few months while until they caught up.  Mind you that was a couple of months ago, do you have any more info on that please?
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c6em

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 11:16:39 AM »

I think also in the USA you pay "real" prices from your broadband rather than the Micky Mouse ones we pay here.
I recall a TBB news item on this where it described the USA prices as likely to give a fainting sensation to those of a sensitive disposition.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2015, 12:34:48 PM »

I think also in the USA you pay "real" prices from your broadband rather than the Micky Mouse ones we pay here.
I recall a TBB news item on this where it described the USA prices as likely to give a fainting sensation to those of a sensitive disposition.

That's the thing right there ................ it is ALL relative.

I wonder how many of the contributors on here, who regularly scream at the top of their voice about lack of FTTP, OR's 'abysmal'  FTTC Infrastructure, etc ............... would actually pay to have this sooooper-doooper 1Gig symmetrical service that isn't going to be beneficial in any way at all to 95% of users ???

Even using B4RN as a comparison, how many would really pay 150 'entrance fee' plus 30 a month for a service that is way above our needs ??? I can tell you now, I for one wouldn't.   
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Bowdon

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2015, 11:18:05 AM »

I think also in the USA you pay "real" prices from your broadband rather than the Micky Mouse ones we pay here.
I recall a TBB news item on this where it described the USA prices as likely to give a fainting sensation to those of a sensitive disposition.

That's the thing right there ................ it is ALL relative.

I wonder how many of the contributors on here, who regularly scream at the top of their voice about lack of FTTP, OR's 'abysmal'  FTTC Infrastructure, etc ............... would actually pay to have this sooooper-doooper 1Gig symmetrical service that isn't going to be beneficial in any way at all to 95% of users ???

Even using B4RN as a comparison, how many would really pay 150 'entrance fee' plus 30 a month for a service that is way above our needs ??? I can tell you now, I for one wouldn't.

I take your point about do people actually need that much speed, and if so, how many people would actually use it.

Though I think the 'need for speed' is a good point, I also think its a minor point for some. Like for me I'm downloading the same stuff at 2mb, at 12mb and now at 63mb's. I was happy with each speed level, though it's always good to know I have the extra speed available.

I guess a similar argument about 'need for speed' is made when all these FUP (fair usage policy) came in. People buy a service that is potentially restricted under FUP. But many people will pay a couple of pounds more to have a truly unlimited service. I used to be with Be and at the time they was a little more expensive than other ISP's though they never enforced their FUP (towards the end they did bring in some more restrictive packages for new customers but I think that was more to do with network capacity).

People are downloading more data when more speed comes along. The numbers will appear to be low as more people are introduced in the 'sample' when usage is averaged out. There will always be a hardcore of people who will always want more speed, and most of all stability of FTTP/H.

A lot more people play online video games these days, something that wasn't possible a few years ago. They also stream content in HD, which also means the upload speed needed to be increased too.

Capacity of the network should keep pushing the boundaries as its better to have more 'space' on the network than is needed. That way other problems will become less as far as usage.

I wouldnt mind paying 150 entrance fee, which isn't much considering I use my computer and net connection all day most days. Also 30 a month isnt that bad. It's 7.50 per week. 2 pints of beer in the local pub would be its equal value. At least paying for 30 a month for FTTP/H is a lot better than falling under the table after 8 pints of beer lol.

On a final note, I'm not one of these people slagging off Openreach / BT. If compared to total coverage of broadband technologies I'm guessing UK will come out on top. A lot of the fast speeds in other countries are from small newly built areas.

I think its wise to always be observing how other countries roll out technology and think of ways we can adapt their positives in to our layout.
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kitz

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 11:36:28 AM »

Quote
I wouldnt mind paying 150 entrance fee, which isn't much considering I use my computer and net connection all day most days. Also 30 a month isnt that bad.

iirc thats similar to what I first paid for 512kbps adsl when I first got it.  30pm was the norm.  I cant recall my exact entrance fee other than I know it was in excess of 100

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« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 11:41:11 AM by kitz »
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WWWombat

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2015, 01:48:19 AM »

FTTPoD has been suspended because it is too expensive to deploy ... which comes about because it consumes too much personnel time, in turn causing queues to become too long.

Neil McRae presented at UKNOF reporting that BT were trialling new techniques to reduce time, and thus costs and queues. In essence, it broke down to:

- Different fibre, using Corning SST fibre incorporating strength members. I think this is meant for the fibre deployed in FoD, rather than the fibre spine. Purpose: to be able to break through more blockages without the need to dig.
- Different blowing technique, using push/pull.
- Using fibre that is easier to split
- More connectorisation, less splicing.

It looks like quite a rethink, and I'm wondering if it alters any of the hardware chosen for the FTTP PONs (the splitter nodes, the fibre DPs, the use of BFT and manifolds).

Still, trials are happening. But don't expect FoD to return until the costs are under control.

BTW - I don't think FoD lines connect directly in to the FTTC cabinet.

Instead the FoD and FTTC deployments share the same fibre spine - which amounts to a long length of multi-fibre cable (up to 288 fibres) spreading out of head-end exchanges, with aggregation nodes (flexibility points, where PON and PtP fibres can be jointed to the spine, in splice trays) interspersed at intervals.

FTTC cabinets are connected into the spine at an aggregation node with PtP fibre (with some spares run too).

FTTPoD deployments create a PON - including splitter, fibre DP, manifold, and BFT. This PON, for up to 128 properties, is connected from the splitter back to the spine at one of the aggregation nodes ... just like the cabinets, but using fibres meant for PONs.

The previous marketing of FoD required users to be in existing FTTC areas, not because of the need to connect to the cabinet, but because of the need to connect to an aggregation node. The presence of FTTC is a shortcut that implies the spine is somewhere nearby

The pricelist for FoD specified the excess cost was proportional to the distance (as the crow flies) between user and the nearest aggregation node.
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burakkucat

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2015, 04:10:46 PM »

Thank you. That is a nicely explained summary of the current situation.  :)

Regarding fibre blowing (or maybe sucking). If I have understood what Walter has previously said -- in the context of B4RN and not Beattie Bellman -- the airflow (by blowing into or sucking out of) through the tubing is the technique used to cause the actual fibre to float, minimising any contact (and, thus, friction) with the wall of the tubing. With the fibre floating, it is then gently pushed by the "feed engine".
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WWWombat

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Re: Can a FTTC area also have FTTP/H ?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2015, 05:57:31 PM »

I think that's been true so far - and it means the air is free to flow much faster than the fibre moves.

As far as I can make out, push/pull requires use of a close-fitting "missile" or "piston" in the tube, which is attached to the fibre. Air pressure pushes the missile, which then pulls the fibre. I imagine the air pressure is much higher for this, and I have no idea whether it helps the fibre float or not.

I suspect that this new method applies to the feeding of multi-fibre cables within sub-duct: the kind of stuff feeding from the aggregation nodes to the splitters, and on to the fibre DPs. I imagine the old-style blowing of very thin fibre through BFT (from DP into the home) will remain as before; I guess BFT's shouldn't get silted up!
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