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Author Topic: newt and engineer  (Read 13024 times)

burakkucat

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2015, 09:51:09 PM »

the default profile for long D sides is different to the default profile for short D sides.

Hmm . . . I've never thought about that condition. Thank you for suggesting it.  :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2015, 10:10:41 PM »

The line has either been reset, or it hasn't ....... there are no 'levels' as such.

the post doesnt explain anything.

Why did he have FEC on the downstream immediatly after a reset?

The post explains everything. The circuit was either reset, or it wasn't ..... end of,

Your comment , "then it wasnt a proper reset in my view" ...... suggests that there may be different levels of reset ?? My post makes it clear ............ there isn't.

I haven't got the foggiest why NS has Interleaving, what depth, the level of INP, what time the birds start chirping round his way .... all I'm interested in is what has actually occurred, not guess-work, supposition, an individuals idea's of what should happen .......... I don't think anybody has a real idea how DLM works.
 
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Chrysalis

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2015, 10:27:56 PM »

Then why you here? this is a discussion forum which part of the discussion is to speculate what happens.

What happened to newt's line is not impossible as it happened.
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kitz

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2015, 11:07:52 PM »

ermmmmm!!

Quote
Then why you here?

Play nice please.   Im so not in the mood to start sorting squabbles.   I haven't read full post, but I do ask for respect for other members.

Thank you :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2015, 01:02:31 AM »

Well kitz I am not the one who started it, respect works both ways.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2015, 02:05:04 AM »

Why did he have FEC on the downstream immediatly after a reset?

I can accept that the DLM reset status is binary . . .

To answer the above question, I pose another. In the time taken for everything to be reconnected and circuit statistics gathering to be restarted could the DLM have already taken action?

And isn't there a possibility of having FECs on "fastpath"?  :-\  I think B*Eagle1 has observational data that supports the case.



These stats are from when DLM was reset after my intermittent fault was finally fixed (May 2012).

D:      16      6

INP:      0.00      0.00

delay:      1.00      1.00

The connection had been up for over 8 minutes when I grabbed the stats, so I suppose it is POSSIBLE that DLM may have already taken some sort of action.


Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 5240 Kbps, Downstream rate = 33524 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 5254 Kbps, Downstream rate = 33114 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 6.0
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.5 6.3
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 246 118
M: 1 2
T: 64 50
R: 8 16
S: 0.2374 1.4360
L: 8593 1415
D: 16 6
I: 255 127
N: 255 254
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 135324 57675
OHFErr: 13 0
RS: 8676891 1441237
RSCorr: 110 0
RSUnCorr: 157 0

Path 0
HEC: 150 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 32922389 0
Data Cells: 1717695 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 608 125
SES: 264 6
UAS: 3114 3114
AS: 518

Path 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 3.79 8.97
delay: 1.00 1.00
OR: 50.54 28.52

Bitswap: 97 5

Total time = 1 days 3 hours 33 min 49 sec
FEC: 9452485 75937
CRC: 46597 186
ES: 608 125
SES: 264 6
UAS: 3114 3114
LOS: 126 0
LOF: 71 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 49 sec
FEC: 59 0
CRC: 6 0
ES: 5 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 1180 0
CRC: 979 0
ES: 12 0
SES: 5 0
UAS: 15 15
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Latest 1 day time = 3 hours 33 min 49 sec
FEC: 28675 1041
CRC: 5037 0
ES: 43 0
SES: 27 0
UAS: 1491 1491
LOS: 23 0
LOF: 15 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 2616588 57863
CRC: 9593 34
ES: 249 11
SES: 74 6
UAS: 206 206
LOS: 31 0
LOF: 21 0
Since Link time = 8 min 37 sec
FEC: 110 0
CRC: 13 0
ES: 11 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0




FWIW, it did change to 'normal' fastpath at over 30 Mbps 2 days later.

Also, YES. I have indeed seen DS FEC/RSCorr counts whilst on 'normal' fastpath for a good few months.


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kitz

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2015, 02:17:17 AM »

NS.

Ive only skimmed your post Im afraid, but it does indeed look like youve had a reset. Too much has changed all at once for thre to be any other explanation.

Delay = 1  yet depth = 17 appears contradictory though and rather strange.  Depth of 17 is so very small and not like the figures in the 100's that we are more used to seeing.  Something nags me about that which I cant put my finger on atm.   I dunno I'll admit Im not thinking straight, but isn't g.inp supposed to remove much of the latency.   I'll ponder on that some other time.

FECs can indeed occur without interleaving and has been doing on many fttc lines for the past year.  It first started on the upstream only and more recently on the downstream

Re the reset.   New lines are supposed to be on open profile for 2 days.  Not sure if same applies after resets.  :hmm:

---
ETA

My post crossed with BaldEagles.

Quote
D:      16      6

Thanks for posting that BE, so not entirely unusual after all.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 02:21:21 AM by kitz »
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Black Sheep

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2015, 10:10:46 AM »

ermmmmm!!

Quote
Then why you here?

Play nice please.   Im so not in the mood to start sorting squabbles.   I haven't read full post, but I do ask for respect for other members.

Thank you :)

I try not to react to 'keyboard warrior' type comments, but fear I have on this occasion. Karma has now been restored.  :)

To answer Chrysalis question of, "Why you here then ?" ......... I would hope its obvious from my posts over the years, and the fact there's a little tag under my forum moniker that says, 'Helpful Kitizen' that I'm here to help where I can ?
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NewtronStar

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2015, 01:04:49 PM »

Many thanks Baldeagle1 it's good to see your graphs for that date as both of our line stats looked similar in 2012, so it's not g.inp it's a just a rarely seen event after a line reset for certain circuits as we both have longer lines (1km +).

Have had to reboot modem when the SNRM was at it's lowest point to lower the connection sync as 33000 was to much for this line and has lowered the errored seconds not by much i have to say.
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WWWombat

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2015, 03:10:58 PM »

About @NS & @BE's line settings...

I'm trying to figure out the motivation for setting such low figures for INP and/or delay, which results in very different pictures for the FEC and interleaving settings (R, D, I, and N).

In the old "standard" settings, INP would take a value of 3.0 or 4.0 symbols; as DSL runs at 4,000 symbols per second, these INP settings demand recovery from a noise burst that is 0.75 to 1.0ms in length. Each symbol would be from 2 to 15 bits, so the amount of bits that would need to be recovered would be high - requiring a high FEC overhead. I guess the end result is to spread the interleaved data over 8ms, while expecting one eighth (1ms) to be corrupted. That would perhaps explain why FEC tends to steal one eighth (12%), or more, of overhead from the bandwidth.

This means that the FEC settings like that ought to overcome a 1ms noise burst within an 8ms spread of data; that would work so long as the bursts of noise occurred no more frequently than every 8ms - or no faster than 125Hz. Electrically-induced REIN would happen, I guess, at either 50Hz or 100Hz, so these settings would solve that. In facty, they look designed to fix precisely that problem - but at a heavy cost.

However, perhaps BT are now motivated to try some softer settings first, to see if they help the line, rather than jumping straight in to assume heavy-grade REIN. The increased take-up of FTTC is now seeing many more people hit the double-whammy of losing speed to crosstalk (perhaps 20%) and then having DLM intervene too (perhaps another 15%) - plenty of motivation there.

Thinking further along those lines ... if crosstalk is now the source of most of the extra errors encountered on lines, then the errors will no longer look like REIN, in either duration or periodicity. I suspect they would probably be much smaller errors, occurring much more randomly.

In such a world, I think these small errors need a very different type of FEC correction - just a few percent of overhead - with much less need for data to be spread over a long period.

I *think* that the newer style of DLM settings, such as INP=0 and delay=1, help achieve that. Or settings that turn on FEC without any interleaving at all. These kind of "strange" settings are turning up more commonly now; perhaps it is a consequence of the same sort of research that has led to G.INP being activated.

If crosstalk is turning into the dominant noise effect, rather than REIN, then the "default line profile" (as used by a RESET) might be set based on the level of occupancy of the cabinet (high occupancy leads to a high expectation of crosstalk), or might be set based on some individual crosstalk-detection mechanism.

The only question left is this: Why did BaldEagle have his line set this way a *long* time ago?

I'm left wondering if BE, having such a troublesome line, might have found himself subject to some manual settings - perhaps even a guinea pig in some research.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2015, 03:27:42 PM »

I'm left wondering if BE, having such a troublesome line, might have found himself subject to some manual settings - perhaps even a guinea pig in some research.



I did wonder something similar myself.

However, as we are all so painfully aware, obtaining any sort of information out of BTOR is pretty impossible.
ISPs appear to generally face similar frustrations.



FWIW, I'm almost ready to release an update to my programs that accommodate & graph the recently being seen G.INP data that some users are already seeing.

I have based various assumptions on data obtained from a connection with very high attainable rates & few errors so far.
No doubt a different picture would be revealed if I could get my hands on G.INP enabled data from a much longer length, problematic connection where G.INP has been enabled.

FWIW, the most recently released versions of HG612 Modem Stats can still plot snapshot data from G.INP enabled connections, but they will crash when it comes to working with 24/7 Ongoing stats.


My version currently being tested handles it all O.K. & it will be released in the quite near future, subject to a few tweaks regarding the selection of the 'meaningful' data to actually graph.

It also works as per usual with non-G.INP enabled connections.

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Chrysalis

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Re: newt and engineer
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2015, 03:29:41 PM »

wombat that may make sense also as my view is the interleaving that occurred on my line in the past was clearly too heavy, it would take my errors down to pretty much 0 and hit the sync speed hard.
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