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Author Topic: Attainable sync and SNRm  (Read 42078 times)

NewtronStar

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Attainable sync and SNRm
« on: January 05, 2015, 10:42:23 PM »

My DS SNRm swings by 1.2dB over 24 hours due to RFI and no amount of sync capping can stop this as the attainable rate is the driver for your SNRm.

We known you can cap the connection speed sync on the HG612 is there anyway to cap the attainable rate on the HG612 ?

All I can think of at the moment is sticking a variable resistor before the HG612 all thats going to do is increase the attenuation and cause a lower attainable and lower connection sync but the attainable will still swing over 24 hours.

If I could just cap the attainable to say 33000 kbps the DS SNRm would be steady
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kitz

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2015, 12:03:04 AM »

Quote
as the attainable rate is the driver for your SNRm.


Its the other way around.  The SNRm is the driver for the attainable rate, the latter is just a hypothetical figure calculated by the router based on what could be acheived if no caps or limits were in place.

Sticking a resistor on will increase the attenuation which will lower the SNR.. and yes in turn reduce the attainable rate, but even if you could,  I cant see that it will be of any benefit as far as DLM is concerned..  in fact its more likely to make things worse.   The attainable will still swing in line with the SNRm, but now at a lower rate.  With the SNRm being lower then DLM will think your line quality has decreased.   DLM doesnt care about attainable rate, it cares about the effects of fluctuations in the SNRm.   

Quote
If I could just cap the attainable to say 33000 kbps the DS SNRm would be steady

No unfortunately not.   SNRm is an actual measurement of line quality and conditions.   Attainable is just an (estimated) calculation based on the conditions.   The effect of doing what your suggesting would kind of be the equivalent of having a thermometer that only measured temperatures up to 30 degrees.  It doesnt stop the temperature rising above that figure though.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2015, 01:25:03 AM »

Thanks for correcting my assumption on the attainable just thought there could be an easy way to full the DS SNRm into a steady level, there must be away to combat this RFI on the local loop you know i've done everthing possible to make the my line better but still this RFI issue is the last thing left to fix.

Kitz do you have any idea how those radio frequencies are getting into my local loop and is there anything that openreach could do to subdue the effects.

TBH this is my last fullhardy attempt to proceed with this RFI issue and a poke in the eye with a krone tool to anyone who suggests an RF3 or MK2/MK3  :D
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 01:27:32 AM by NewtronStar »
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burakkucat

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2015, 01:44:42 AM »

TBH this is my last fullhardy attempt to proceed with this RFI issue and a poke in the eye with a krone tool to anyone who suggests an RF3 or MK2/MK3  :D

Perhaps you should use your sonic screwdriver to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow?  :-\  :angel:
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2015, 01:54:23 AM »

Perhaps you should use your sonic screwdriver to reverse the polarity of the neutron flow?  :-\  :angel:

Never thought of that cheers the BBC Web site has 14 instock at £14.99 each and bundled a user manual  ;D 
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kitz

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2015, 02:32:08 AM »

I wish I could suggest something else for you NS.  Its the induction of some sort of noise that is causing the SNRm to fluctuate and until that noise can be completely eliminated then there's nothing else that could stabilise the SNRm.   As far as the mechanics of DSL goes, then anything up to 3dB is classed as acceptable and normal variance.  The longer the line then the more anticipated variance, so you'd less likely expect 3dB variance on a short line, but it would be normal on a long line. 

Your variance over the course of the day looks pretty damn smooth and to me it looks like just general background type noise.  I certainly wouldn't say its REIN/SHINE/PEIN and its now just the typical day swing you'd likely expect to see from general atmospheric RFI.   In fact I'd say your SNRm looks quite nice for the line length.   The QLN tells a bit of a story - I dont like the spikes in the last band...  but that in itself could be typical of background noise picked up on long lines.     It would at some point be interesting to see if a QLN in the morning is better than a QLN taken in the evening.   Usual caution given re performing resyncs.    Dont be in a rush to do it as Im not expecting to be around much over the next couple of days. :( 

Your E/S looks quite acceptable now.   I have a very strong suspicion that a lot of your damage was done during the early days before monitoring commenced.   I suspect that you may have been doubled by the ILQ many times over and therefore you may have to wait longer for the DLM to relent.    I dont know how much swing the DLM allows for SNRm before it repents, but I'd consider 1.5dB to be reasonable for any line.  Id expect the DLM to only be looking at variance of say more than 3 or 4dB.  If I had to take a guess and take a stab at a figure then I'd say DLM would look at less than 3.5dB as being ok.  This is based purely on the fact that all DSL theory says 3dB is acceptable.

I so very much wish that the ISPs could request a DLM reset for fttc.. as Im sure your line would now perform quite happily.

Im also unsure about the effects of capping sync..  because if you are going to do it, you'd need to do so and keep it like that for a long time until the line recovers.   If the ILQ system is monitoring your line in preparation for a reduction then any artificial capping that causes changes say from 6dB to 10dB and back again could do more harm than good.  The DLM will see an SNRm change of 4dB and isnt likely to like it.   The DLM will be far happier with a line doing a daily swing between 6dB and 8dB each day.  It wont be happy to see a change of 10dB down to 6dB as it will just see a downward loss of 4dB and could class that as unstable. 

I really do need to dig further into the ILQ aspect for DLM recovery because thats where Im up to, but Im sorry I honestly dont expect to be able to do that for a while.  People are going to have to cut me some slack over the coming weeks as things are only likely to get worse. :/
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ardsar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2015, 09:14:21 AM »

It's interesting as my line appears to behave very similar to yours.  I have been capped by DLM for around a month now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Chrysalis

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2015, 01:10:49 PM »

Newtron a few things.

1 - The SNRM is the real figure based on real time line conditions.  The only way to cap it as you say is to effectively weaken the signal so you have a lower SNRM, thats not a good thing :(
2 - The attainable is an estimate by the modem of what the line can achive based on target SNRM and current SNRM.  My view is that different modems and firmware will estimate differently depending on how they programmed e.g. I suspect the zyxel firmware will give a higher estimate than say the hg612.
3 - To fix your problem is nothing you can do, I think you powerless, its down to the long length of your D side, cable makeup and conditions outside your property.  I had the same swings when I was on ADSL, a long 50db loop loss.  They are gone now I have a short D side on VDSL.  All it will achieve is driving you nuts, I tried all sorts of things when I was on ADSL and none of them prevented the swing, you can make your line more resilient of course by applying interleaving or syncing with a higher SNRM.  Certain modems/chipsets as well may also prove more resilient, traditionally in my view broadcom chipsets have been the best at handling these conditions.

As a final note what you really could do with is SRA, SRA is really good at dealing with varying conditions.  Apparently SRA is planned on VDSL it may come with vectoring and on the NEW DLM currently beenworked on, but I may be wrong.  On ADSL in the UK the only provider that ever enabled it was easynet (ukonline). its barely been used in the UK.  Basically SRA will peg your SNRM down to a fixed level e.g. 6db and instead vary the sync speed to maintain stability.  It does this without dropping the connection.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 01:14:44 PM by Chrysalis »
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2015, 06:18:27 PM »

Kitz I'm very grateful for your insight into DLM SNRm thesholds and yes completely agree that my random attempts to sync cap the connection may be doing more damage over the short term though my gut say's the DLM has permanently stuck me on the interleaved profile unless it get's a DLM reset by openreach at a cost of £150 would rather treat myself with one of those all in one DSL-VDSL modem/routers as the HH3 & HG612 is getting on a bit after 3 years.

& Chysalis you said it "All it will achieve is driving you nuts" and it has been driving me  :mad: and there is nothing I can do at my end to change this.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 06:30:22 PM by NewtronStar »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2015, 07:28:55 PM »

even a engineeer visit doesnt mean you get a reset, they only supposed to order resets if they find and fix something.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2015, 08:06:52 PM »

even a engineeer visit doesnt mean you get a reset, they only supposed to order resets if they find and fix something.

Thats an interesting debate all on it's own  ;) how big does a fault need to be before the engineer ask's for the DLM to be reset, if the DLM has become stuck and we all know to well software and hardware do have there clitch's from time to time so the DLM is not immune from this.

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Black Sheep

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2015, 08:29:35 PM »

To answer your question officially, the fault* can be 'any size' ......... so long as it is a fault that has been remedied.  :)

*Fault- as defined by BTOR/ISP's ............... not the EU's own scrutiny of, or definition of. Sorry, I don't make the guidelines.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2015, 09:18:02 PM »

To answer your question officially, the fault* can be 'any size' ......... so long as it is a fault that has been remedied.  :)

*Fault- as defined by BTOR/ISP's ............... not the EU's own scrutiny of, or definition of. Sorry, I don't make the guidelines.

Then I'll have to ask your goodself would my SNRm problem be classified as a fault that could be fixed ? I hate putting you in this position yet I question myself is it worth pursuing and have looked at quite a few QLNs and Bitloading graphs on MDWS and yet have not seen such severity of missing tones in the evening elsewhere.

This is a Bitloading graph this evening and a whole chunk of tones start to disappear after 4pm and this is why the SNRm swings.

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Chrysalis

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 09:21:31 PM »

Newt hopefully BS can make a comment on my thoughts here.

But given I have never been charged for a visit even when no fault found, I suspect the £150 fee you quoted is mainly there as a deterrent to stop people reporting faults repeatedly and seen to be wasting openreach's time.

BT your isp have to legally let you know the fee may be raised prior to the visit hence them warning you, but I think in many cases no fee is raised.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Attainable sync and SNRm
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 09:34:52 PM »

Newt hopefully BS can make a comment on my thoughts here.

But given I have never been charged for a visit even when no fault found, I suspect the £150 fee you quoted is mainly there as a deterrent to stop people reporting faults repeatedly and seen to be wasting openreach's time.

Well this would be my first time to report a broadband issue/fault the last time was when I was with TALKTALK but it was due to BB outages all I want is an OR engineer to test the line when the SNRm drops off that's from 2-4pm and reset the DLM and check that 25 year old drop wire to DP pole  :)
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