Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: New Ecodesign rules  (Read 5310 times)

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
New Ecodesign rules
« on: January 01, 2015, 11:23:06 AM »

Curious new Ecodesign rules from today, reported on BBC applying to modems...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30643357

Quote
European Union rules will oblige new networked devices such as modems and internet-connected televisions to switch themselves off when not in use.

So how exactly would any home web server work?  And what about BT's DLM algorithms?

I assume the BBC have simply got the story wrong, but you never know... :o
Logged

roseway

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 43472
  • Penguins CAN fly
    • DSLstats
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 11:40:17 AM »

I certainly hope that the BBC has got it wrong, because turning modems and routers off when not actually passing traffic will cause havoc. I guess that using a monitoring program will keep them alive though.
Logged
  Eric

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 12:17:37 PM »

snrm will be all over the place as crosstalk jumps up and down :D
Logged

renluop

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3326
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 12:24:32 PM »

Curious new Ecodesign rules from today, reported on BBC applying to modems...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30643357

Quote
European Union rules will oblige new networked devices such as modems and internet-connected televisions to switch themselves off when not in use.

So how exactly would any home web server work?  And what about BT's DLM algorithms?

I assume the BBC have simply got the story wrong, but you never know... :o
Does it actually mean off?  From the link is "But new devices sold from Thursday will fall to sleep, using a trickle of power when they are not in use."
Logged

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2078
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2015, 01:05:18 PM »

I think these are the actual regulations:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02008R1275-20130912

There's a separate section about networked equipment, it requires power management for networked equipment to put the device into a "networked standby" mode. The power limit for a router type device in networked standby mode is 12W.

Anything that is designed to meet the voluntary Code of Conduct on Energy Consumption of Broadband Equipment probably uses less than 12W in active use, and much less than that when idle.
Logged

loonylion

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 723
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 01:56:44 PM »

This is just another case of bureaucrats meddling in things they have no understanding of in order to push their own agenda.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Respected
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 38300
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2015, 03:58:14 PM »

b*cat is incredibly grumpy.  >:(

He said no to the "Europe nonsense" twice in the 1970s and has still not changed his opinion.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2015, 04:21:12 PM »

snrm will be all over the place as crosstalk jumps up and down :D

Good point.

Which raises the possibility that, even if existing modems are satisfactory as-is, the publicity generated will encourage well-intentioned people to switch off at night, in the belief they will either save money, or save the planet.   

Any such effects are of course blown out of all proportions by the media, yet I would imagine it must compound the fttc cross-talk issues no end, for their neighbours.   :'(
Logged

les-70

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2015, 07:16:18 PM »

  Currently varying snrm would be an issue but if the lines had SRA then with power saving most or all of the time things ought to run better/faster due to less crosstalk.  I have the impression that many EU countries have more progressive service providers than BT and that could make the EU think things are easy to do.   In principle I am favor of switching off at night, or when not in use, as it can only be good to use less power. 
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 10:19:11 AM »

Quote
This is just another case of bureaucrats meddling in things they have no understanding of in order to push their own agenda.

Exactly..  what is it with all this Ecodesign rubbish and need to be green.   I had a moan on here a while ago that my so called Eco Washing Machine now takes twice as long to do a wash and costs more in electricity as it now has to heat all water from a cold feed.  By hey the label says its green and energy efficient and this makes it look good for statistics.   But the reality is that it costs me more to heat water for a wash and nevermind that the machine now has to be on twice as long, so its actually far less energy efficient than my old machine.   


Quote
snrm will be all over the place as crosstalk jumps up and down


This is reminiscent of "cool broadband" which has been discussed a few times previously on here.   BT trialled it on adsl2+ a couple of years ago and abandoned it as being impractical as it caused too many problems. One of the interesting threads is this one - link.

In there there's a link to a document from Texas Instruments which specifically discusses the issue of "Time Varying Crosstalk" and makes interesting reading.   The PDF doesn't copy and paste very well without some editing so have a read of of the information on and around page 8...   but this kind of sums it up

Quote
The issue of time-varying crosstalk resulting from L2 mode has recently attracted the
attention of DSL standards committees during the discussions for VDSL2. The short
lines, for which VDSL2 is targeted, suffer from strong Far-End-Crosstalk (FEXT). In this
case, the impact of time-varying crosstalk is expected to be
very significant.
For this reason, it was proposed to
completely abandon L2 mode for VDSL2
[4,5,6,7,8,9]. This proposal gained the support of a number of service operators, including SBC, Bell Canada, BT, Qwest, France Telecom, Telecom Italia and TeliaSonera. The ITU Study Group 15 agreed in the October 2004 meeting that an L2 mode shall not be specified for VDSL2

So basically all new modems must be capable of going into this power saving (L2) mode.   Because it looks good if they can stamp an energy efficient label on the side of the box.
But in reality, all of the worlds major ISPs and the ITU say its not practical because it causes too many issues with crosstalk.

What a total waste of time and money by some bureaucratic green department.

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

guest

  • Guest
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 12:58:18 PM »

I doubt it'll have any effect at all on the wired side of things - either xDSL or LAN - but will have an effect on wireless chipsets (probably already does on a lot of stuff).

I know that the last three routers Sky have released (2504n/SR101/SR102) are already compliant with the directives/regulations as they come with certificates of conformity & Ecodesign 2005/32/EC is one of the ones listed. None of those routers go into any form of power-saving with wireless off as they all use <10W.

I would expect that if Sky has been supplying compliant equipment for the last 3-4 years then most other telecos/manufacturers have been doing the same

In short its a load of hype IMHO, usual guff from the BBC who are generally utterly clueless on anything technology-related anyway.
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2015, 10:13:14 AM »

AFAIK a lot of routers have been compliant for a while now.  Going back to the BT trials in 2012 iirc several users reported seeing their routers in the L2 state.  Im not certain but there was rumour that Sky had also been dabbling with it at about the same time.  Neither kept it as a permanent feature because it caused too many issues.

Quote
In short its a load of hype IMHO,

Exactly..  Here we have a case whereby the ITU, the modem chipset manufacturers and the worlds major ISPs say its disadvantageous for VDSL, yet the EU are pushing it for the sake of that little green eco stamp that can be put on the box.  ::) 

Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

JGO

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 729
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2015, 12:01:05 PM »

It seems to me someone needs to point out that if you switch off a 10w modem then the central heating will crank up by 10 w to compensate so certainly at this time of year, where is the saving ?
 It is the same myopic thinking that gave us switching mode regulators  with no interference precautions ! "Look 100% Efficiency !!!" 
Logged

guest

  • Guest
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2015, 12:28:49 PM »

AFAIK a lot of routers have been compliant for a while now.  Going back to the BT trials in 2012 iirc several users reported seeing their routers in the L2 state.  Im not certain but there was rumour that Sky had also been dabbling with it at about the same time.  Neither kept it as a permanent feature because it caused too many issues.

Yeah Sky used/trialled it nearly 3 years ago and ISTR discussing with you how it screwed up the DLM training around the point at which it'd switch over to ADSL2+.

That of course was simply so the telecos could save some cash on their exchange plant costs & had nothing to do with consumers. That's becoming less of an issue as xDSL moves closer to the customer premises for various reasons.

If you remember the g.fast work I was doing last year - that was all about reducing power supplied to the drop point by customer equipment because of the future Ecodesign requirements. IMHO you'll find that die shrinks on xDSL chipsets will deal with those future targets on consumer kit without any sort of power-saving modes but there are going to have to be power-saving modes for the wireless side of things, especially on the higher-end kit (802.11ac etc).

tl;dr wireless interfaces are the main issue on most consumer-level kit, not wired interfaces.
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: New Ecodesign rules
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 12:38:48 PM »

It seems to me someone needs to point out that if you switch off a 10w modem then the central heating will crank up by 10 w to compensate so certainly at this time of year

Preaching to the converted as far as I am concerned, but you'd be surprised how many people I talk to that will never get it.  Still, the BBC is full of some of our best electronics engineers, why don't they speak out?   Somebody recently suggested to me that a new qualification should be awarded for BBC environmentalists... PhD in Hot Air ? :)

edit, misquoted jgo!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:46:01 PM by sevenlayermuddle »
Logged
 

anything