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[kitz]

I seriously doubt they'd reset all lines

1).  There will be millions of lines that are likely to be on the correct profile and stable

Resetting all lines will instantly make one heck of a lot of lines unstable and flapping all over the place.  The ISP's support calls would go through the roof.  Most people dont have a clue about DLM and dont care.  Add in the fact that most FTTC users dont even know their sync speed let alone understand that they are getting additional latency through interleaving.  All they care about is line stability and not dropping in the middle of playing a game or whilst streaming a movie.

ISP's would suddenly be deluged with calls of 'My Internet keeps dropping out', which would also affect call outs for Openreach faults.

Those customers caught between changes and on a higher profile than they should be, will be comparatively few and far between.

2) DLM only calculates the profiles that should be used. It passes this info to the OSS and then its the Element Managers that set any relevant parameters on the DSLAM.   Element Managers are used to monitor and configure DSLAMs/MSANs not just for DLM functions, but also provide status and make general configuration changes to the DSLAM/MSANs.
Those for sure will not be turned off, so any profiles already on the DSLAM will stay. 

[Chrysalis]

yep, thats why I said they will keep as is, it doesnt require any work, plus unstable lines as you say would cause problems.

Newt may as well uncap his line now, as what he doing wont work with the current situation.

[adslmax]

Has anyone try this yet? Switch off modem and switch back on ten times in the space of 30 minutes to see if DLM has kick in?

[kitz]

Has anyone try this yet? Switch off modem and switch back on ten times in the space of 30 minutes to see if DLM has kick in?

I do NOT recommend that anyone tries it.  If you hit the 10 times parameter then that over-rides the normal DLM process and causes the Device Manager to go into over-drive - Monitoring then is no longer performed by the data collectors and the usual algorithms dont apply.   We do not know which part of the system has been switched off. 

[adslmax]

Then the whole of DLM switched off is more confused now.

I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015

[kitz]

I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015

or it may be simpler to drop back to the previous DLM using just SNR & Interleaving?   Until we know which part of the patent BT have infringed then we cant really speculate too much.

[les-70]

I seriously doubt they'd reset all lines

   If they did I am sure it would be to a safe well interleaved setting. 

[tbailey2]

I reckon BT will start to bring in new DLM v2 in 2015

Until we know which part of the patent BT have infringed then we cant really speculate too much.

I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE somewhere:


Broadband technology specialist ASSIA, Inc. has launched the latest version of its flagship broadband management and optimization platform. The company has optimized DSL Expresse 3.3 to help support the roll out of broadband access networks based on VDSL and vectoring. It also sports new features that help minimize technician truck rolls, as well as improve customer support services.

DSL Expresse is the platform through which ASSIA offers customized services, called Expresse Solutions, for its clients. This version of the platform builds off of the vectoring capabilities introduced in DSL Expresse 3.1 last fall (see “ASSIA upgrades DSL Expresse to support vectoring management”). ASSIA has had the opportunity to run vectoring field trials with DSL Expresse, and the new version takes advantages of some of the lessons learned to improve the platform’s algorithms and performance, according to George Ginis, vice president, product management.

Service providers can use DSL Expresse 3.3 to help evaluate their installed infrastructure’s ability to support high-speed services using vectoring, Ginis said. When necessary, it will recommend that particular nodes need to upgraded or new terminals installed. Overall, DSL Expresse-enabled management capabilities can reduce the percentage of lines with significant noise impairments for both vectored and non-vectored scenarios to the single digits, Ginis asserted.

DSL Expresse also will support the provision of ASSIA-supplied services that can help the service provider predict take rates, based on customer analytics. The system will support as well the combination of vectored and non-vectored traffic within the same binder, in cases where a provider wants to roll out vectored services incrementally or is operating in an unbundled, multi-carrier scenario in which not all of the carriers want to provide vectored transmission.

Combined, the capabilities not only help service providers roll out vectoring-enabled 100-Mbps VDSL services more quickly, but enable them to prioritize their roll outs to create a success-based implementation strategy, Ginis said.

"With the release of ASSIA DSL Expresse 3.3 and Expresse Solutions, ASSIA can help accelerate vectored VDSL rollouts for service providers that increasingly have to compete with cable, LTE, and emerging fiber-to-the-home services," said Stephen Wilson, senior analyst at research firm, Analysys Mason, via an ASSIA press release. "DSL Expresse is a proven, hardware-agnostic solution that can help increase customer take rates while minimizing capital expenditure on vectoring upgrade efforts."

Meanwhile, the DSL Expresse 3.3 also features upgrades to ASSIA’s ClearView expert system. ClearView can support both call center and field technician efforts to streamline troubleshooting and problem resolution. ASSIA asserts that, when paired with Expresse Solutions for customer care automation, DSL Expresse has improved the productivity of customer care professionals by at least 50%.

[Chrysalis]

I find it ironic they claim their technology improves performance when DLM only slows down lines.

[Dray]

It reduces packet loss and retransmits so less bandwidth is wasted resending packets.

[guest]

The ASSIA patents in question aren't (AIUI - and I may well be mistaken) in general to do with the nitty-gritty of DLM, its more to do with the management of those lines and how that is handled.

None of this has any impact whatsoever on on the current Openreach "fibre" services (VDSL2). AIUI this relates to BT Wholesale/Retail ADSL services only.

For those having a pop at ASSIA - they pioneered DSL profiling/management solutions a LONG time before BT came to the party. Been a very very long time since BT pioneered anything & the infringements saved BT multiple millions in customer support so I have more sympathy for ASSIA than BT.

My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it.

Not a great fan of s/w patents but BT are taking the proverbial on this one - and they know it.

Edit - and in a different thread on these boards I go on about how good Sky DLM is, that's not down to Sky having great hardware - its mainly down to g.INP firmware support and the ASSIA management suite.

[kitz]

I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE somewhere:

I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.

For those having a pop at ASSIA

I dont see that anyone has     (so far)

My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it

The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring.  Bet BT are busy beavers atm.

[Ixel]

I'd imagine that might be buried in HERE somewhere:

I think you may be right in that it is 'something' to do with the vdsl system.

For those having a pop at ASSIA

I dont see that anyone has     (so far)

My personal opinion is that BT will come back to the table when they are forced to rollout vectoring - and again this is about how you MANAGE vectoring/profiling/etc, not how you implement it

The system profiles will have to change anyhow to account for vectoring.  Bet BT are busy beavers atm.

I wonder if this will motivate them into rolling out things like vectoring, who knows maybe it will help .

[NewtronStar]

I am just glad this Rambo shutdown thread was made or would have missed Kitz's DLM system tutorial very well worded and can undertand most of it 10 out of 10 and thanks 

[kitz]

Ive only very quickly scanned the patent.  I need about 6 hrs to read it all in depth.   

ASSIA file a patent infringement against BT's 20CN,21CN & NGA (multi service) DLM.  The court adjudicates that only the "NGA broadband network system infringes EP1869790

The above implies that the issue is just with FTTC.


DLM & RAMBo technology was properly patented and already implemented by BT before ASSIA filed EP186970 in Feb 2006 & Published May 2012.
ASSIA doesnt seem to have had an issue with RAMBo until quite recently.. and some of us oldies have been controlled by RAMBo since 2005.

So what has changed... 

1) In circa 2010 BT has expanded their DLM system to include the FTTC Network, meaning that the BT's DLM system now monitored and a cross platform of xDSL products (BT's previous system only covered ADSL and not FTTC).

ASSIA's patent filed in 2006 shows DLM used for FTTC and they specifically mention DLM for DSLAMs in FTTC cabinets - unlike BTs original RAMBo patent which just mentions DSLAM.

2) BT's original patent mentions adjustable parameters and gives an example of Interleaving and target SNR Margin, as being likely parameters.
ASSIA's patent of 2006, acknowledges that other DLM systems are in place, but specifically mentions "Band Control" ie banding. Its well known that ASSIA use banding in their profiles because thats what SKY use.   BT didnt use banding as a parameter until FTTC. (incidentally BT got a real bee in their bonnet about DMTtool and people over-riding the target SNR Margin)

3) The patent mentions something at first glance that perhaps looks like BTs ILQ system for returning the line profile back down if deemed stable.

4) BT have recently been installing MSE bRAS and also testing a more centralised form of OSS rather than have a RAMBo box at each exchange. As far as can be ascertained, mostly only FTTC lines have so far been moved to MSE bRAS, which have their own 'RAMBo'.
ASSIA is a centralised system.

5) BT are currently rehashing their DLM due to the vectoring roll out plan.  This is already in progress, but we have little information.

So take your pick which/if/any/all  of those it is.


ASSIA are likely most unhappy because the likes of Sky and TT (who use ASSIA for their LLU systems) with FTTC now use the BT DLM system, so they've lost revenue.  By BT expanding their own DLM system to include GEA, income from Sky and TT will be reduced.

.. and the current situation is :

ASSIA says to BT pay us £250,000 per week.  BT says go stuff yourself.  ASSIA says "without DLM BT's customers will suffer".  BT turns off FTTC DLM.