Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved  (Read 13331 times)

g3uiss

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • You never too old to learn but soon I may be
    • Midas Solutions
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 05:14:11 PM »

I Have been reading this, I too want to get back to FP, I had some issues with noise up to about a month ago, but that's gone. Do we actually know what ES value is need to persude the DLM to try FP again, mine are less than 20 / day
Logged
Cerebus FTTP 500/70 Draytec 2927 VOXI 4G fallback.

pooclah

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 05:33:22 PM »

What is your FEC count per day?

Like NS i believe the DLM takes that into account.  Mine for yesterday was 252312 so not much hope for me.
Logged

g3uiss

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • You never too old to learn but soon I may be
    • Midas Solutions
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 05:41:34 PM »

955328 ! So on that basis not for me either.

However I'm not sure how this works as the FEC's are as a result of the error checking. No Interleave and then no FEC (I think !)

Its a black art this BTOR DLM  :(
Logged
Cerebus FTTP 500/70 Draytec 2927 VOXI 4G fallback.

pooclah

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 06:09:39 PM »

Its a black art this BTOR DLM  :(

Same as that.

As you say FEC’s are corrected errors, so without some level of interleaving I guess they would be CRC’s.

Like me you need to track down where the little buggers are coming from or how to prevent them – either task will probably be impossible.   
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 06:10:20 PM »

Im not convinced about FECs.  Everything Ive seen implies only one parameter for Errors recorded in the Element Manager & Data Collectors. Ive been doing a hell of  lot of reading recently on the DLM on anything I can get my mitts on that comes from BT.  Im trying to put it all together as Ive got tons of stuff its just taking me time to do so as the whole thing will encompass several pages on the site, because it really is that massive of a subject and far more involved that it first appears. 

Nor would the inclusion of FECs work for MTBE calculation.   However there are occasions when if a line is performing very badly then RAMBO will directly monitor the line - in those instances it will look at other parameters not normally used  by the normal day to day monitoring of most lines.  For those lines RAMBo for sure looks at SNRm variances - which it wouldnt normally do.  Most of the monitoring for most lines is the responsibility of the Element Manager and its Data Collectors.

The only algorithm that I havent got my mitts on is the up to date figures for MTBE and MTBR.  Ive come across several but not sure which is correct.  MTBE < 30 seems to be the one that Ive seen that is most appropriate and its the one I used for the DLM calculator. 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

g3uiss

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • You never too old to learn but soon I may be
    • Midas Solutions
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 06:12:57 PM »

Thanks for the interesting comments. Im sure a whole gang would be interested in the full info....Something tells me its not going to be easy to get. If we are to believe the ISP's they say they don't know either, although I'm not sure I believe that ;)
Logged
Cerebus FTTP 500/70 Draytec 2927 VOXI 4G fallback.

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 06:35:04 PM »

Thanks all for the advice if i was gonna get move onto fastpath it should of happened years ago, if it's down to my 180+/- errored seconds per day then it's look like fastpath it is out of my reach, and banding my line seems such a loss of sync with a small attainable of 32000 - 35000 kbps
 :(
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 06:37:56 PM by NewtronStar »
Logged

pooclah

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 06:38:18 PM »

Hi Kitz

Since being interleaved (2 months) I’ve seen between 100 & 150 US ES per day upstream and 0 &2 DS ES per day, but FEC’s are high and I’m sure it was high CRC’s that got me interleaved.  So far even though the ES are low the DLM isn’t letting go of me and I believe (possibly wrongly) it’s because of the FEC’s. 
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 07:14:19 PM »

The problem may be banding related.  Ive seen something that implies the DLM intervenes it goes something like INP -> banding, but when it drops back down again it goes banding -> INP.   I havent got all the stuff to hand, but Im pretty sure it mentioned about how lines would drop through banding before removal of interleaving.    That however is one area I havent gone into in depth yet.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5717
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 07:27:59 PM »

Hmm . . . An interesting theory based on your own observations. I wonder if others can supply evidence that agrees with you proposal?  :-\

Zen's FTTC training document mentions that DLM takes FEC into account, this looks like it is true.

The DLM info is immense, (as Kitz alludes to herself). I can clarify that FEC's are taken into account, however I can't find info on the threshold values ??
The bulk performance metrics DLM uses, appears to have 39 values reported every 15mins (such as FEC, Errors, attenuation, Traffic Count) .............  and 26 values reported every 6hrs (such as bits-per-tone, SNR-per-tone, INP).

Logged

g3uiss

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • You never too old to learn but soon I may be
    • Midas Solutions
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 07:31:57 PM »

Thanks, I guess that means we can never work it out !

My only issue with the whole system, that actually provides a stable service, is if you get a blip, you get correction/banding applied almost within 24hrs, but it can take forever because of the caution counter to get it back.

Really as and end user we should be able to chose between speed and reliability, I know ISP's have the 3 levels but, I could live with an opened port and mange with the odd disconnection. The latency is an issue that affects my VPN's, but I guess BT would say its not an SLA line so buy one  :-[
Logged
Cerebus FTTP 500/70 Draytec 2927 VOXI 4G fallback.

Ixel

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1282
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 07:59:51 PM »

every time I have been synced with even 1 extra db snrm, I found a significant change in error count.  Its amazing how effective it is. Worth trying, but do not cap it too much, because it may band you lower.  The issue you have is banding not interleaving, I think if you not syncing at the same speed as the upper limit of the band then it wont be removed.

Yeah :(. Trouble is I am syncing at the upper level of the banding, I guess I'll just have to be patient and see if the next couple of months it goes up, or downgrade to 40/10 at the end of my contract (despite attainable being much much higher).
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2014, 08:22:12 PM »

Quote
The DLM info is immense, (as Kitz alludes to herself). I can clarify that FEC's are taken into account, however I can't find info on the threshold values ??
The bulk performance metrics DLM uses, appears to have 39 values reported every 15mins (such as FEC, Errors, attenuation, Traffic Count) .............  and 26 values reported every 6hrs (such as bits-per-tone, SNR-per-tone, INP).

Before I start..  no Im not shooting the messenger.  I very much value your input BS. :)

However, that seems weird, why would the DLM function part of RAMBo need all those parameters such as atten and traffic count etc.
Everything Ive seen just says errors and retrains are used by the element managers for the DLM and sync speeds for RAP.  It also records uptime in seconds for each 15 min bin.

The DLM algorithms are supposed to be

MTBR = Uptime / Retrain Count
MTBE = Uptime / Errored & Severely Errored Second Count

which are normalised over a 24 hr period.
 
If a line is classified as performing very poor (& mention of 10/20 retrains within a short time) , then the RAMBO will take over and perform direct monitoring of the line with the DSLAM (ie cutting out the usual process) and monitor other parameters such as SNRm variance.

---
PS also

Changing these parameters is based on two performance metrics, errors (in particular, in this embodiment, errors caused by code-violations) and re-trains (i.e. re-syncs).

FEC isnt a code violation - those are CRCs/Err Secs/SErr Secs  :-\

« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 08:42:32 PM by kitz »
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5717
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2014, 08:42:25 PM »

Hey, no worries Kitz ...... as you know I'm not that up on DLM/Rambo and really can't be bothered pouring over the thousands of documents surrounding it. But, I did go back to the 'Metrics document' I alluded to above, and as usual ..... you are right.

Hidden away is 'Mandatory' and 'Optional' reporting values the six optional are ....... ATU-R Vendor ID, Upstream traffic count (TBD), Downstream traffic count (TBD), Power management state, Upstream Actual Aggregate Transmit Power, Downstream Actual Aggregate Transmit Power ........... the rest, (FEC's included), are mandatory reports.  :)
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: FEC's Vs Interleaved/none Interleaved
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2014, 08:55:49 PM »

lol.. no worries.   Ive a lot going on right now, and there have been many nights when Ive been unable to sleep despite being totally  knackered, so reading material in the hope of sending me off has all been DLM related.

I've also just shelled out and send away for something written by one of guys who works for BT about their access system which looks like it may be interesting. - Im getting quite the collection now of books on my shelf about broadband, which has been noted and commented on before by the more observant of BToR guys that have visited when Ive had problems.  :D

Maybe if I can make some sense out of the all the info Ive got so far and put it into the usual more readable format, then it may be of use to others.  I didnt think when I started just how big a topic this would be though...  so far Ive managed to dilute RAMBo and the DLM system into one page that is almost ready.    I also like to do something in graphical format which helps 'at a glance' and thats practically done too.

The full DLM algorithm though..   thats for another page..  as will be RAP - despite me already having an IP profile page.  ???
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker
Pages: 1 [2] 3
 

anything