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[kitz]

I believe the Thomson TG585v7 is known to misreport output power - i tend to see the figure at 0 or 25.5db for the downstream output power.

In a way thats a shame, as it could have explained the drop in attenuation.  Output power is a measurement of power transmitted from the MSAN, which affects the strength of the adsl signal and can also make the line more vulnerable to fluctuations in SNR if its too low. 
Leaving the router off overnight wont make any difference to the figure, but I have known some routers mis-report, which is why I asked if you can recall if it ever seemed to record properly when on BE.

For adsl2+ it should be 18/19/20dBm, and the DSLAM can ramp the power up a bit if theres lots of bit-swap. Anything less and you are unlikely to get full bitloading, its seldom you ever see it at more than 20dBm.

If you see 0, then yes its false reporting, because the line just would not work if that figure was true

Have had DSLstats running for over 24h now

Thank you. At first glance of the graph it is showing symptoms of REIN. 

Closer inspection of the SNRm shows some odd upstream spikes at circa 18:05, 19:20 and 20:05 which we sometimes see if there is a line fault and the telephone rings.   However, I note you say that the phone wasnt in use, so taken with the downstream variance, it could possibly be SHINE. 

Just for the sake of completeness, can you advise if the line lost sync at those times?  The 'Connection Speed' tab may show this as its unlikely to have retrained at exactly the same sync speed.  Whilst at the Connection speed tab, it may be interesting to tick the 2 check boxes to also record the max attainable values.

REIN and SHINE do sometimes go together.  From the graphs its possible that your upstream is affected by SHINE when 'something' is first switched on and shows a spike, whilst the downstream is affected for the period of time the cause remains switched on.

Your CRCs during this period are going crazy. From the graphs, it looks like the figures are clipped at 30, but in reality are much more (You can change the clipping value and/or turn it off, but the graph shows the effects either way).

Your bit loading graph, shows that you possibly do have a small amount of crosstalk.  If your SNR per tone follows the same pattern, then its centered around tone 225 which is the 7/8Mb speeds..  and is exactly where Id expect a short line to see the most effects, so all looks normalish as far as crosstalk is concerned.

Whether its the state of your internal wiring that is causing the connection to be more sensitive to REIN I dont know. The bell wire is the usual culprit for acting as an antennae for REIN.
There are many causes of REIN, it doesn't necessarily have to be in your own house, weve seen many cases where its neighbours equipment that has been the culprit.

if I got this plate fitted would it cause problems with that in future?

I'll leave the other guys to discuss the internal wiring & face plates as they are already on it...  but personally speaking if you can get it normalised to an SSFP, then no it wont affect VDSL.  In fact BToR Engineers will normally fit an SSFP Mk3 as part of a managed FTTC install.  I had previously installed my own SSFP several years before getting FTTC.   No BT wont scold you for removing the bell/ring wire.

Im not too sure if its a good idea to get FFTC yet though whilst the line is in its current state. (noted that its ready but not available).   I had a fault develop literally the day after I ordered FTTC.  (FTTC and the Sky takeover of the BE MSANs happened at the same time here).   Its going to be much harder when on FTTC to prove that your line isnt performing as it was.   

I dont know the exact location of your cab, but based on the similarity of your BE adsl2+ stats to my own, then Id anticipate you should easily get 80Mpbs plus on vdsl.  What was a very obvious fault on adsl2+, became much harder to prove on vdsl, because you should get lots of 'spare' SNRm for such a short line.   This can mask SNRm variances and errors, that wont really affect the line until VDSL crosstalk also starts to kick in.  By which time it will just all be lumped together and you will be told nothing they can do for crosstalk. 

[JGO]

Karmi,

1) MK1 faceplate was designed for ADSL only and the RF3 filter had inadequate bandwidth (in Hz) for full bandwidth VDSL.  Depending on your available FFTC speed this may not matter - see Les-70's posts.

2) Cutting bell wires NO - pull out one of the connector wires and swear it fell out ! The bell wire is only used for pulse dialing so obsolescent. 

3) AIUI you need a xDSL extension from faceplate to modem, or locate modem adjacent to faceplate and long Ethernet cable ?    The second is preferable but it may be worth trying the first, cheaper and more flexible cable.

Do bear in mind that this assumes interference is your problem - although sooner or later it probably will be


HPsauce
 I plate (I for Interstitial ) is sandwiched between existing faceplate  and box. It has no NO "microfilter".
 FFPs have a repacement faceplate with 2 sockets phone and modem and microfilter.
Both have bell wire choke and an RF3 type device. 

[HPsauce]

I plate (I for Interstitial ) is sandwiched between existing faceplate  and box. It has no NO "microfilter".

I'm afraid you are 100% wrong there, or are thinking of some other (or older) product. Please go and check and make sure you look at the Mk2 version with an RJ11 socket at the top.
(and yes I do have one myself)

wouldn't the new iPlate solve the problem

I've just realised the installation image I linked to used the older version without the socket.  (original post now edited)
Here's a closeup of the iPlate also showing where to connect wires for an unfiltered ADSL extension.:
 

And here's the internals, showing the filters etc. :

[karmie]

@Kitz thanks for the very detailed analysis - I can confirm the line DOES drop and resync immediately, usually within 10-20 seconds and sometimes will drop a number of times over a matter of minutes and then remain stable for a few hours. Between midnight and noon the line has not dropped once nor have I seen many CRC errors (which at peak times can reach around 120 per 30second sample)

I am a little confused regarding iPlate or the NTE5 Faceplate? I can order one ASAP and read up on how to fit it (provided it is compatible with my master socket, I  linked images in last post?)

For now I will remove the bell wire as PERHAPS it would help ease the issue if this is conducting interference around the line as it clearly seems to be an interference issue  whether it is in my property or elsewhere. Am I correct in saying it is simply removing the Orange and White wire at the master? Should I do this for all 3 of my extensions too or initially just at the master and take it from there? This will be the first thing I do when I get in this evening.

Out of curiousity, if I got BT to install a new line for me with a master socket in a reasonable location (like my living room) and ordered it with BT broadband (or Plusnet) would you think that could be a way around this issue? Its absolutely bizarre how flawless my connection has been in this property, since 2007 up until 2014 the connection was rock solid on fastpath with sub 10db attenuation and always maximum syncs and throughput. I was amazed when we moved in to the property at just how good the line stats were and the moment I moved over to Sky suddenly my line is a disgrace. I just cannot see how my line managed to fail + my attenuation increased to around 16db within the same week I got forced to move over to Sky.

[HPsauce]

For now I will remove the bell wire as PERHAPS it would help ease the issue if this is conducting interference around the line as it clearly seems to be an interference issue  whether it is in my property or elsewhere. Am I correct in saying it is simply removing the Orange and White wire at the master? Should I do this for all 3 of my extensions too or initially just at the master and take it from there?

The colours mean nothing, it's what connector they are in.
Connections 2 and 5 are used for the phone signal, all others should be unused in a standard domestic situation.
I'd remove them everywhere in case there is equipment that can feed interference back onto the main wires, but just at the master is a reasonable start.

Note that the bell wire has a role in phones ringing (hence it's name) and some (very few these days) handsets will require it in order to ring. The good news is that you can avoid using it simply by having the phone plugged into a standard plug-in ADSL filter block as they (usually) recreate it locally.
In most situations you will have that anyway so need to do nothing, but installations with a central filtered faceplate can require this "fix".

[karmie]

So on my master and extensions if I remove the bell wire (I will check out some Google info) and provided I don't touch anything at IDC's 2 & 5 it should be all functioning? I only use 1 landline phone and it is a newer electronic wireless handset type from BT bought last year so it definitely does not need the bell wire. It is a great point to mention that the filters can recreate it locally if the need was ever there.

Regarding the Faceplate - by looking at the image of my master would that be considered a standard socket to install it into or would I have to install a seperate master box next to it and go down the whole "crimping" route (not sure if that is correct terminology) - I am all for snipping a couple of wires but I would sooner pay for the more complex jobs to be done. We had a local bloke out who said our internal wiring was all fine and I am assuming if he could have done anything to help he would have done so (as it would have made him some money as he didn't even ask a callout fee..)

[JGO]

HPSauce.

Yes, what I was describing was the first ( and as far as I knew only) I plate. (IMHO it was discredited by being advertised as "Magic Accelerator".)

I think the important point is that such a device doesn't remove pickup on the extensions or stub filtering by them and so isn't suitable for karmie ? 

[HPsauce]

Well not exactly, the iPlate Mk1 does filter the bell wire to extensions so you are still misunderstanding.
The Mk2 is a significantly different device, they really are not comparable.

The master NTE5A here has, unusually, no "user" phone socket, just a blank lower faceplate. Installing a Mk2 iPlate would supply an unfiltered RJ11 socket for broadband (could be used for phone too with appropriate adapters/filtering) and filter all the extensions.

[kitz]

I think I get what both of you are saying and are both right in certain respects.

The MK2 version is vastly superior to the i-plate for filtering for filtering the lower telephone jack. It should also isolate the bell wire. 

This mean putting the blank face plate back on to the front bottom.  Anything that would have come out of the bottom section (if it wasnt blanked)  would be low pass filtered &  anything coming out of the top socket would be unfiltered for adsl purposes (as would anything via the IDC connectors), so both voice and dsl would still be carried onwards to Karmies extension...  which would still need a separate filter.

I isolated the bell wire when fitting an adsl filtered faceplate

[Black Sheep]

Just putting my two penneth' in regarding terminology.

The i-Plate was the forerunner and was indeed touted as an 'Accelerator'. The subsequent MK1-3 SSFP's are not referred to as i-Plates between engineering staff. 

[HPsauce]

Indeed, the common terminology doesn't help; as I said:

The Mk2 is a significantly different device, they really are not comparable.

So, BS, would you like to suggest suitable terms for us mere mortals to use when referring to the later "SSFP"'s?

[JGO]

Well not exactly, the iPlate Mk1 does filter the bell wire to extensions so you are still misunderstanding.
NO - choking the bell wire doesn't stop common mode interference pickup on the other two or them acting as a stub filter.

 The subsequent MK1-3 SSFP's are not referred to as i-Plates between engineering staff.     
Thanks for that BS.
I take it they are by marketing people ?

The important issue is advising karmie. Something from 7.20 to 11 pm each evening sounds domestic - probably TV (if you are a masochist !) or is there some plausible line mechanism ?
 
As he is going to FFTC  it needs the later SSFPs but an estimate of speed seems to be needed first to decide which device ?   

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Edited by admin fixed smiley which was bugging me

[Black Sheep]

I can if you would like me to ............ how about something along the lines of MK1, MK2 and MK3. 

The difference between the components I couldn't comment on, but identification is very easy. The original i-Plate would connect as a faceplate, whereas the subsequent SSFP's are actually sandwiched between the back-plate and the front-plate.
The MK1 SSFP has no markings on it other than the embossed 'Openreach logo', the MK2 and MK3 have this version number printed in the top right-hand corner of the SSFP.

HTH.

[Black Sheep]

The subsequent MK1-3 SSFP's are not referred to as i-Plates between engineering staff.     
Thanks for that BS.
I take it they are by marketing people ?

I wouldn't know, JGO .......... I stick to what Openreach engineering and our Logistics team, refer to them as. 


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Edited by admin - fixed smiley

[kitz]

choking the bell wire doesn't stop common mode interference pickup on the other two or them acting as a stub filter.

So for now just pull the bell wires.  Cheap and simple no special tools needed.  Could replace the blanking plate with a filtered faceplate but I dont see the point if theres nothing coming from it.

If /when karmie gets FTTC hopefully they still will do managed install so BT could normalise the box and perhaps even do a locate for free (if its a BToR guy and you offer a cuppa and biccies)