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[burakkucat]

May I now make a few comments, please?

• Earlier in this thread I asked if some photographs would be possible. They were and they showed that there is an NTE5/B present. An NTE5/B can be converted to an NTE5/A by swapping the lower front face-plate. The lower front face-plate of either an NTE5/A or an NTE5/B is classified as the end user's property.
• I note there is a minor disagreement over terminology. Beattie's marketing originally announced The iPlate. Please note the definite article. The iPlate, as far as I am concerned, was a good idea blown up into a marketing con. It contains just a choke in series with what we call "the bell wire". (Subsequent newer versions of the NTE5/A actually have such a choke fitted to the back of the lower front face-plate.) The iPlate and the subsequent Service Specific Face Plates (SSFPs) are, ipso facto, interstitial plates -- they are fitted between the back (highly technical word alert) gubbins of the NTE5 (which is Openreach's domain) and the lower front face-plate, either an A or a B (as in karmie's case) (which is the EU's domain).
• Earlier in this thread I commented that it was not exactly clear from one of the photographs but it seemed as if there were two cables connected via their wires to the IDCs (of the B type lower front face-plate) and it appeared (to me) that all six wires (of the three pairs in each cable) were connected to the IDCs of the lower front face-plate.

Some very sage advice has been given (b*cat performs his best Japanese-style bow) by (in no particular order) JGO, HPsauce, Kitz and Black Sheep . . . However I do not think we are in full possession of the facts regarding karmie's infrastructure.

My suggestion, please, is for karmie to take a further series of photographs (when convenient). The photographs should clearly show:

• The wires present and connected to the back of the lower front face-plate (at the NTE5/B) -- we need to see which colour wire(s) is/are connected to each IDC.
• The wires present and connected at each of the (two?) extension sockets -- we need to see which colour wire is connected to each IDC or screw terminal, as appropriate.

Once the above has been seen and duly considered, then we can suggest one (or more) possible plan(s) of action.

Finally, would it be asking to much to know karmie's location? Just by county. If it is Surrey, then Walter (I am sure) would be willing to trundle his wheelbarrow to the required address and make any require adjustments. If it is Lancashire . . . etc. If it is Suffolk a certain grumpy old black cat might be able to plod there and stick his paw in . . . 

[HPsauce]

Well not exactly, the iPlate Mk1 does filter the bell wire to extensions so you are still misunderstanding.
NO - choking the bell wire doesn't stop common mode interference pickup on the other two or them acting as a stub filter.

It's far from perfect though it does help, but then I wasn't ever suggesting that it was used in this situation. 
In fact I never ever thought it was useful to me as simpler alternatives existed for anyone with a modicum of familiarity with phone wiring.  8)

As Kitz said, just disconnecting the bell wire everywhere that's possible will be as good as anything for now. 

[karmie]

Hi - had a lot to catch up on...

My location is Forfar in Angus - unfortunately we have had FTTC pushed back since mid 2012 and even though we were told our cabinet was ready they haven't taken any orders and estimate it will be before the middle of next year...

burakkucat has brought up an excellent point which I completely overlooked - if I were to take photos with a proper camera (not an AWFUL Iphone one) and proper lighting I think it would be much easier to determine a solution and what wires to remove for the bell wire fix and if possible what faceplate I can install myself given my setup - I will take the photos with a proper camera and upload them later in the day. From what I have seen online and on videos the faceplate install does not seem overly tricky provided you have the correct setup initially? I was reading up about the NTE5/B faceplate and it seems super strange how we have one as it is a regular 3 story detached house which is around 100 years old. House does not have an alarm and did not when we bought it in 2007 either.

Thanks again for all the input although some of it doesn't mean much to me it puts me on the right track to Google the rest.

[kitz]

My location is Forfar in Angus

Unfortunately, that is well out of the area for what we call 'Walter's Wheelbarrow', however if you get stuck or need something clarifying just yell and we will do our best to explain or advise further.

[karmie]

Hi guys - I just took a gamble and did what was suggested on Page 2 after a little time Googling to make sure I wouldn't do any damage.

Everywhere I read it just said leave IDC 2 & 5 connected and remove everything else so starting at the Master I worked my way through each of the 3 extensions and removed the cabling from IDC #1,3,4,6 and bent them round a screwdriver to keep them out of the way (pro tip from Youtube) and reseated them and tested with a corded filtered phone each time to make sure it was working. It is worth mentioning the phone line sounds WAY clearer than before which is hopefully a good thing.

I did take some photos but I don't have the cardreader on my PC and someone is away with my laptop until tomorrow (oversight on my part) - to simply word what was there (excuse if I get the wrong terminology as you know I am a rookie!)


NTE5B / Master socket: IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #1 (closest to Master and FULL of cobwebs, untouched for a LONG time): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #2 (second closest to Master FULL of cobwebs, untouched for a LONG time): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #3 (living room, router has ALWAYS run from this extension, PRISTINE inside): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 had 1 singular cable crimped in each

All I did was remove cables from all except #2 , 5 but where applicable I left both of the cables in if it was previously like that. Does that make sense? So Master,Ext #1 and #2 have 2 cables going into 2,5 ports and Extension #3 has 1 as it was when I started.

I would like to mention since doing this I have router uptime of 1hr 45mins with ZERO CRC,FEC,HEC,ES synced at 16383/1031 and attenuation has dropped from 16.5db to 14.0db downstream and the 9.0db upstream is now 7.5db. My router is reporting 10.5db SNR Margin down and 8.0db up and both have been rock solid (within .5db) for nearly 2 hours (at no point since I moved to Sky has my SNRM been this stable, usually jumps between 5-13.5db) - the only thing that concerns me is why I am syncing at 16383 on 14db attenuation? My Sky profile online says I am on a 16.2mb profile - is it possible that is capped? I currently have DLM entirely disabled on my line at my request and requested to manually enforce fastpath even though I had an unstable connection; my logic being the line was fine until evening times like 5pm-11pm but was fine during the daytime/late.

OBVIOUSLY 2 hours is not a great sample size but it is the best 2 hour sample my line has had since we moved to Sky. 0 errors or drastic SNRM fluctuations in 2 hours and a 'max' sync from what I can tell - I will run DSLstats for another 24hours and see how things pan out.

2 Quick questions for you smart folk:

1) Is my SNRM bad? 10.5db down and 8.0db up - I am sure this figure used to be lower. Am I correct in saying the 3db SNR profile on Be* is totally different to SNRM and higher SNRM = better stability or more room for error and lower SNR = higher syncs at the cost of some stability?

2) This is a Sky question - are the syncs capped based on 'profiles'? What else could cause such a poor sync speed with my attenuation (14.0db down/9.0db up)? Could it have something to do with the output power being low? I know the thomson tg585v7 misreports output power but AFAIK it reports it as 0dBm as opposed to the 1.5dBm it is reporting. I could try to plug in the Sky unit and check on that as I have no DLM on my line so I can disconnect it willy nilly :-D Would you guys suggest if the line is rock solid for 48h or so that I should contact Sky regarding the 16400 sync and see if they can retrain it or whatever?

Once again THANK YOU for all the help, I am praying this is the end of the road for these issues. I have no problem with the odd drop once a day but the connection was horrific on peak times before this.

[JGO]

GOOD ! nice to hear of someone's success. Often there is a resounding silence !

I would be inclined to make a final assessment after a week as patterns of use and possible interference will change through the week. BTW did you get my PM ?
 

[renluop]

As to the mis-reporting of downstream power, I have a vague feeling that it can be found by telnet to the router. Think results same as normal plus some extras.

[burakkucat]

Hi guys - I just took a gamble and did what was suggested on Page 2 after a little time Googling to make sure I wouldn't do any damage.

Everywhere I read it just said leave IDC 2 & 5 connected and remove everything else so starting at the Master I worked my way through each of the 3 extensions and removed the cabling from IDC #1,3,4,6 and bent them round a screwdriver to keep them out of the way (pro tip from Youtube) and reseated them and tested with a corded filtered phone each time to make sure it was working. It is worth mentioning the phone line sounds WAY clearer than before which is hopefully a good thing.

I did take some photos but I don't have the cardreader on my PC and someone is away with my laptop until tomorrow (oversight on my part) - to simply word what was there (excuse if I get the wrong terminology as you know I am a rookie!)

NTE5B / Master socket: IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #1 (closest to Master and FULL of cobwebs, untouched for a LONG time): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #2 (second closest to Master FULL of cobwebs, untouched for a LONG time): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 both had 2 cables crimped in each
Extension #3 (living room, router has ALWAYS run from this extension, PRISTINE inside): IDC #1,2,3,4,5,6 had 1 singular cable crimped in each

All I did was remove cables from all except #2 , 5 but where applicable I left both of the cables in if it was previously like that. Does that make sense? So Master,Ext #1 and #2 have 2 cables going into 2,5 ports and Extension #3 has 1 as it was when I started.

That is certainly an improvement. I can almost picture your wiring infrastructure but there is still something missing that makes me

Let us first consider the extension cables connected via the IDCs on the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/B. There are two cables present with wires only connected to IDC2 & IDC5. That is good. The presence of two cables implies that there must be a minimum of (at least) two extension sockets connected to the circuit.

I now see mention of three extension sockets. That fact is consistent with the two cables connected via the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/B.

Extension socket no. 1 is described as having two cables present with wires only connected to IDC2 & IDC5. That is good. We can tentatively deduce that one cable is the link between the NTE5/B and extension socket no. 1 whilst the other cable links to another of the extension sockets.

Extension socket no. 2 is described as having two cables present with wires only connected to IDC2 & IDC5. Ah, now what does that imply? We can tentatively deduce that one cable might be the link between the NTE5/B and extension socket no. 2 or it might be the link between extension socket no. 1 and extension socket no. 2. An uncertainty. Now what about the second cable at extension socket no. 2? It could be the link between extension socket no. 2 and extension socket no. 3 or it might be a link to something else, as of yet, unknown!

Extension socket no. 3 is described as having just one cable present with wires only connected to IDC2 & IDC5. That is good. We can deduce that socket is the end of either a chain of extension sockets or it is a socket fed directly by one of the two cables present at the NTE5/B.

Thinking it through and considering all the permutations of cables present at each location, there must be (or there was) something else connect to the circuit. Perhaps there is an extension socket no. 4? Or perhaps there was an extension socket no. 4? Perhaps there is evidence of the end of a cable, somewhere, which has been severed at sometime in the past?

The only way I could obtain a clear picture of the circuit would be to disconnect one of the two cables from the lower front face-plate at the NTE5/B and then test at each extension socket to see which is energised and which is not. There are so many possible permutations as to how your local wiring is connected that I am not going to list them all.

I will, however, mention just one of them. It could be possible that one of the two cables connected to the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/B is unconnected . . . it just winds its way off elsewhere into the property to a point where it has been disconnected or severed. If that is the case, then it should be left disconnected from the lower front face-plate of the NTE5/B. If that were true, then it means that the second of the two cables is the link to extension socket no.1 (or extension socket no. 2), which then is linked to extension socket no. 2 (or extension socket no. 1), which finally is linked to extension socket no. 3. Essentially a daisy-chain of three extension sockets. (See how confusing simple speculation can become.    )

[kitz]

Sounding good so far.     Hopefully things are still the same today?

1) Is my SNRM bad? 10.5db down and 8.0db up - I am sure this figure used to be lower. Am I correct in saying the 3db SNR profile on Be* is totally different to SNRM and higher SNRM = better stability or more room for error and lower SNR = higher syncs at the cost of some stabilit

Without seeing full stats its hard to say.  Also a set of stats immediately after a resync is the best way to check your SNR Margin.  The 10dB sounds like it may be Skys DLM keeping your SNRm high.  Be* allowed a Target SNR Margin of 3dB if your line was stable.
Whilst related SNR, SNR Margin and Target SNR Margin are three different things. 

If you want to know whats going on , theres a little bit of light reading on this page, it explains the difference between the 3. Ive tried to tone it down the techy jargon to a level that is factual yet understandable to most people.  Start with ~ What is SNR?.

2) This is a Sky question - are the syncs capped based on 'profiles'? What else could cause such a poor sync speed with my attenuation (14.0db down/9.0db up)? Could it have something to do with the output power being low? I know the thomson tg585v7 misreports output power but AFAIK it reports it as 0dBm as opposed to the 1.5dBm it is reporting.

Sky DLM has profiles, which basically contains 2 parameters - [Target] SNR Margin & Interleave. 
When you retrain (reboot) your router, then the line will sync as fast as it can with '[target x]'dB of SNR Margin.  SNR Margin will continue to fluctuate and your router will report SNRm changes as they occur.

Having a high target SNRm will restrict the speeds you are capable of acheiving.

If your power output is too low, then yes it may slightly affect the Signal Attenuation measurement.  Attenuation is a measurement of signal strength loss. 

Less power means less signal strength, which in turn affects other parameters such as SNR and bitloading.  The less bits loaded then the lower the sync speed.   It also means that a line could become more susceptible to noise.

I could try to plug in the Sky unit and check on that as I have no DLM on my line so I can disconnect it willy nilly

Yes it would be a good idea to check.  Although Im not convinced about you not having DLM on the line.
 
Also as suggested earlier, you could also see what measurement you get from TG585 via the telnet CLI to make sure its not just a GUI reporting error. Ive forgotten off the top of my head what the cmd is, but you shouldnt need to this as DSLstats should give you the raw data under:

   Telnet Data -> Connection Stats.   

[HPsauce]

Excellent news.

Just to echo and support what Burakkucat has said, tracing and verifying all the remaining cables (in 2 and 5) and totally disconnecting all the unknown/unneeded ones would be good.

A final point is that, ideally, the phone cables (2 and 5) should be a single twisted pair. e.g. orange/white and white/orange. A mixture of colours will be in separate pairs, not twisted together, so even more prone to interference.

[HPsauce]

A final point

Never say that....... 

Anyone who connects all 6 wires in the cable is almost certainly not a professional and doesn't really know what they're doing, so this is probably an amateur/DIY set of extensions.

As such almost anything could be wrong. A couple more things to check for:
1. Correct extension sockets; look on the faceplates to make sure they're not master sockets reused incorrectly.
2. Star wiring. Ideally all the extensions should run in a single chain with no branches, forks or stars.

I think you were asked above to describe the wiring in a bit more detail, so if you can work out the wiring topology, starting at the master socket, we may be able to advise.

With modern cordless handsets and wireless routers it's now almost always possible to eliminate any star wiring by simplifying to a core set of sockets that are genuinely needed.

[karmie]

DSLstats of the last 24hours: http://imgur.com/a/7hwCd#0

Connection has held sync for over 24hours (which is a first!), 0 FEC/HEC/ES and 21 downstream CRC errors per 24 hours (0.89/hour.)



Regarding Burakkucats post I believe the missing link COULD be the secondary phone line we used to use which was cancelled around the same time we got forced on to Sky.  We used to have a seperate business line but then moved over to the BT service that allows you multiple numbers with different ringtones - this could be the missing piece to the wiring? Hopefully the wiring adjustment will allow the line to remain in its current condition because I have absolutely no complaints since then and it doesn't need to be 100% perfect provided I could get it more stable in the evenings (touch wood on that one.)

Kitz, I am not sure about the DLM thing - the guy I spoke to said he would 'manually configure my profile' and it could only be adjusted by ringing them back up. The line was dropping 10+ times a day for 3 days and still remained on fastpath with the lowest interleave depth and before DLM would jump at any chance to interleave the line - unless they are able to decrease DLM sensitivity somewhat. As you can see from the telnet stats below the output power is reporting extremely low.. I will plug in the SR102 Sky box and see what it reports after this post. If I were to phone Sky and have them manually adjust the profile or set the target SNR Margin lower to increase the sync speed could it cause instability issues again or are my line stats reasonable since the wiring modification? I would obviously love to have a couple of extra mbits down but I wouldn't risk stabilty over it.

TELNET DATA:
Bearers generic info                  DS            US       
Payload rate [kbps]:            16383       1031   
Attenuation [dB]:               14.0            7.5
Margins [dB]:                   10.5            7.0
Output power [dBm]:             1.5            10.5

HP - I am assuming you mean I should keep the phone cables in 2&5 'wrapped' together and away from all the other 'dead' cables in the socket? I made a point of seperating all the non 2&5 cables so they didn't touch ANYTHING the moment they left the sheath/split in the cabling - they are nowhere near the live 2&5 socket cables (other than inside the white wire sheath or however you say) - I wrapped them up and tucked them out of the way. Could have snipped them with scissors too I guess? If the line does degrade or it is necessary I could most likely do a better job of tidying the cabling up.  I would absolutley hate to pull out these additional cables in 2&5 and not have the crimping tool to fix them on hand immediately if needed though.

Thanks again for all your help guys and I now am beginning to see a light at the end of tunnel! Provided everything remains as it has been for the past 30hours I would have no complaints!

[HPsauce]

HP - I am assuming you mean I should keep the phone cables in 2&5 'wrapped' together and away from all the other 'dead' cables in the socket?

No, not really, I'm talking about the way the cables are arranged inside the outer sheath as they run around your house as that's where they pick up interference like a huge radio aerial. The colours used will tell anyone who knows about phone cables whether that is correct or not.
What are they?

[burakkucat]

DSLstats of the last 24hours: http://imgur.com/a/7hwCd#0

Connection has held sync for over 24hours (which is a first!), 0 FEC/HEC/ES and 21 downstream CRC errors per 24 hours (0.89/hour.)

Those graphs look really good.  :clap2:

Regarding Burakkucats post I believe the missing link COULD be the secondary phone line we used to use which was cancelled around the same time we got forced on to Sky.  We used to have a seperate business line but then moved over to the BT service that allows you multiple numbers with different ringtones - this could be the missing piece to the wiring?

No, I don't think that is relevant.    You have provided clear evidence of an unknown length of cabling that is still connected into the circuit. Try as I might, I cannot think of any rational scenario other than there is another extension socket somewhere of which you are unaware or there was another extension socket which has subsequently been removed, the cable to it severed off flush to a surface and then decorated over.

I would absolutley hate to pull out these additional cables in 2&5 and not have the crimping tool to fix them on hand immediately if needed though.

No, please do not attempt any other modifications. I do not want you to start trying things whilst we are essentially "blind". Sight of further photographs of the infrastructure, when convenient, may provide us with further information.

Perhaps your new found line stability may prove to be adequate -- until a VDSL2 based service becomes available to you, at some time in the future.

[kitz]

I'm a bit happier with your attenuation being at 14dB which is nearer the realms which I'd expect.   Also, when you were on Be, you had Annex_M, so that would have meant less downstream bins, so it could have affected your attenuation slightly by say 1dB when going back to Annex_A

On the subject of bins and frequencies there is a slim chance that your internal wiring may have been picking up interference in one of the tones that Be didnt use.   I wouldnt swear on it though because i wouldnt have expected the impact to be quite so bad as it was for just swapping between Annex A/M.  However, it is about the only explanation I can come up with thus far..  but Im not happy enough about that excuse for me to say yeah that will be what it is. 

-----------
Wooooooooah..  Ive just had a lightbulb moment.    A convo me and rizla had several years back about Skys network and how they used ASSIA kit. Damnit I cant find it now. Cant recall if it was in the forum or via PM or via mail  

But.. I think somewhere in the back of my mind I recall trying to look into ASSIA and what it configures.  It can do some of the usual stuff like QoS, but the flash of inspiration was recalling something about cutting power back on the dslam.

Rizla are you out there, can you remember?

BBL if I can find that convo.