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[renluop]

Link to article in TBB newsletter
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/6651-end-of-the-road-for-openreach-vdsl2-modems.html

[Alex Atkin UK]

I can understand not providing hardware for new installs (although I don't agree with it) but its a bit low to refuse to replace existing hardware if it fails.

Self-install in my opinion is an utter farce with ADSL, to bring it to VDSL too now is just a way for BT to fob end users off when there are faults.

Its just far more logical for BT to manage the hardware up the ethernet port on the modem, its all about accountability.

[broadstairs]

I must admit that I am very much in favour of self installs. OK so I am very happy to manage my own hardware and know enough about it all so as to be confident I can get it all up and working and I am much happier running my own hardware on the line rather than having BT's stuff with no control over what updates (or backdoors  ) there may be. I do think that managed installs should be available in parallel as there are many folks out there who would not have a clue about how to do the necessary work to get up and running.

Now as soon as Plusnet get on this bandwagon I'll probably jump ship from TT to them and their 38meg fibre 

Stuart

[Black Sheep]

I can understand not providing hardware for new installs (although I don't agree with it) but its a bit low to refuse to replace existing hardware if it fails.

Self-install in my opinion is an utter farce with ADSL, to bring it to VDSL too now is just a way for BT to fob end users off when there are faults.

Its just far more logical for BT to manage the hardware up the ethernet port on the modem, its all about accountability.

Alex, self-install was introduced as a cheaper alternative to End Users .......... not to "Fob them off". That's up there with 'Did man really land on the Moon ?'.

I have no idea of percentages, but yes, we do get the odd 'Early Life Failure' (Fault) as a result of a self-install. This is more often down to the EU's internal wiring set-up, or, sometimes the fact the Cab work hasn't been done. 
Would you insist that every single VDSL convert was a 'Managed Install' ??

[Chrysalis]

I will just mirror what revk said who happens to be a director of an isp.

With no openreach modems on adsl, it is all too easy for engineers to blame the user's modem and as such raise a SFI charge.
I also think he is right that if openreach are planning to cease support before end of existing contracts that is quite possibly breach of contract. I Cannot be sure as I am not privy to those contracts but his claims are it is a breach.

Personally I think managed install's are the best option as you get an engineer checking out the line during the install, so if an obvious fault is present it gets fixed on the day or at least gets raised for a later fix.  Also there doesnt seem to be a commercial device on the market that can match the hg612's error rate and stability.

BS to answer your question, I think the best solution is keeping the option open, and of course continuing to support the modems that have been issued.  My expectation is pretty much all isp's will go the  cheapest route and wires only be the only option available to the consumer.

[Black Sheep]

I agree, MI's will always be the best option, but SI's are there as an option. OR would much prefer the MI route as it's better for their bottom line. So, we agree on that, Chrys.
I don't however subscribe to the comment SI's were introduced to 'Fob off' EU's. I haven't got anything other than common-sense to back up my theory, but I would humbly suggest that dialogue between the various ISP's and OR would have taken place, before SI's became an option ??.

[Chrysalis]

I think some isp reps also on ispreview news site backed revk up as well.

I suspect self install is championed by BT, sky and TT, and the rest prefer managed install.

[kitz]

Its only a repeat really of what they did back in 2002 with adsl and home install.   In 2002 a BToR engineer used to install all adsl connections and hook one of the infamous 'frogs' aka the  Speedtouch 330s modems to your PC



It cost £150 connection & £29.99 per month for 512kbps. There were very few adsl modem/router back then and you'd be looking at circa £150 to buy your own.

Self install was introduced as a means to make it cheaper to get connected and encourage more people to move from dial-up to adsl. 

btw you couldn't get stats either from the ST330's...  but there was one way..   and hence the birth of 'frogstats'   


Deja vu anyone? 

[twitch]

I remember them, though mine was a bright Green one.
I was one of the first to be connected in Slough....

£30 for 512kbps... How things change..  now some moan about £25 for 80Mbps  lol

 

[sevenlayermuddle]

My own fttc install was by Kelly.   At the time I placed the order, I thought I'd have preferred self install.

But... when Mr Kelly attended to attach the SSFP and modem after doing transfer at cabinet, there was initially no DSL.   He had to return to the cabinet, where he discovered he had transitioned a neighbour's line by mistake.   

That was all resolved quite quickly but I wonder how long I'd have waited for a fix if the Engineer had able to just move on to next job after his first, failed, attempt at the cabinet?   During which time both my neighbour would have had no broadband of course.

This is not just a slagging off of Kelly.   It is a fact of life that people will make mistakes, even (sorry BS) 'real' OR Engineers are entitled to the odd hiccup.   Better then, IMHO, have a process that demonstrates any mistakes have been rectified before they move on.

[WWWombat]

I didn't get one of the frogs - mine was a fully-fledged Alcatel modem/router. Mind you, that came (along with the engineer install) as part of the very first trial of ADSL in 2000, and there was only the option to get 2Mbps at the time.

It did get very hot though...

One thing that self-install of ADSL did was to allow the market to grow fast - and that helped the price of modem/routers to drop too. I'm sure it was a benefit overall, and I'm sure the same will be true of FTTC self-install.

... and because of the size of the market after self-installs happened, I was able to buy my own modem/router as a replacement very easily. By that point, I was much happier to buy something I had access rights to, rather than having a BT-supplied modem that I was locked out of.

[kitz]

as part of the very first trial of ADSL in 2000, and there was only the option to get 2Mbps at the time.

I bet that cost an arm and a leg back then :/   In late 2002/2003 the only home option was 512kb at 50:1 which cost £30.   
1Mbps and 2Mbps was available at 20:1 designed for business use and I cant recall the cost other than it was too expensive for me.
Home 2000 didnt become available until late 2004, so I had to wait until then before I got the dizzy speeds of 2Mb

mine was a fully-fledged Alcatel modem/router.

I wonder if it was because you were on 2Mb - which would have been classed as  20:1 business that you got a posh  modem/router.  I dont go back as far as 2000, so you will know best what happened back then   All I know is that in 2002 the home (50:1 512k) users got the 'frog'.  The likes of PCWorld didnt sell adsl routers because there was little demand.  I have a vague recollection of looking at the available choices for routers from online retailers at a time when online shopping wasnt anywhere near as popular as it is now.  My choice was practically limited to a Draytek Vigor .. or buying a Solwise.

One thing that self-install of ADSL did was to allow the market to grow fast - and that helped the price of modem/routers to drop too. I'm sure it was a benefit overall, and I'm sure the same will be true of FTTC self-install.

Yes - agree.   There really isnt much choice atm in the UK market.  The fact that BT supply a modem mean that the average man in the street isnt too interested yet in purchasing their own combined unit.   I do find it interesting that Draytek were about first in the market again when it came to VDSL routers. 

[Chrysalis]

I also had the frog. Back in 2000 on my 576kbit freeserve ADSL service, my line was rubbish also because even with that low sync dropouts were frequent. plus on install my line was above the attenuation cap, but engineer was as excited as me and proceeded.

But in those days no openreach, was bliss, could ring up freeserve, and same day engineer fixed.  Far less red tape.

When I eventually moved to a router was a speedtouch 510v4.

[WWWombat]

I bet that cost an arm and a leg back then :/

Well, it started free, as Demon were running it as a trial  (well, it cost the tenner a month for the account, as normal) but I expected to end up dropping to a 512Kb product after a while.

The trial kept running a little longer than expected. Then there was some confusion over swapping to a 512 service, so I kept the 2Mb while waiting for 512 to become available properly (I wasn't going back to dial-up at any price!). Then it turned out that Demon forgot to charge me for a while  ... long enough for the price to have dropped to something almost acceptable (only 1 arm and half a leg). At the point I *should* have done something about it, IIRC, I expected it to take some effort to get the USB frog working with Linux so never quite managed to sort things out.

Finally, I ended up doing contracting work partly based from home - at which point I could justify the cost easily.

mine was a fully-fledged Alcatel modem/router.

I wonder if it was because you were on 2Mb - which would have been classed as  20:1 business that you got a posh  modem/router.

That's a good point - it probably was treated as a business connection.

And it was certainly early - the engineer reckoned I was one of the first on the exchange.

[adslmax]

He had to return to the cabinet, where he discovered he had transitioned a neighbour's line by mistake.   

What happen if he removed our DSL by mistake? That's would be even worse!