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Author Topic: BTW checker & line length  (Read 6295 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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BTW checker & line length
« on: September 18, 2014, 10:15:04 AM »

I'm wondering... does the BTW checker really take line length to cabinet into account with FTTC?

For my own line, due for connection next week it indicates 69.5/20 (high) and 52.3/15 (low).   That is by checking against phone number, a postcode check just shows the old adsl speeds.

Yet I have just measured it out on a map, and I am about 500-600 metres from cabinet. The various online estimators of speed vs distance seem to suggest the BTW figures are more than a tad optimistic, downstream of about 40 being best I can hope for.   Or are these calculators all wrong?

There are other inconsistencies, the Openreach 'where and when' site still tells me FTTC is coming soon to my exchange, but not yet available at all.   Can't help wonder if maybe they just haven't collated all the data yet, so are quoting for some mythical average line?    :-\
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 10:19:23 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
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roseway

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 10:22:11 AM »

I know nothing about how the estimates are done, but I agree that the checkers are not entirely up to date. If you go to the BTW checker and use the postcode option, I think you'll get the same 'unavailable' result for FTTC. But the telephone number checker and the full address checker do show the availability of FTTC. That's how it still is for me, even though the cabinet which serves all the properties with my postcode went live for FTTC nine days ago.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 10:32:07 AM »

Full address checker shows exactly the same speed predictions as phone number.

And interestingly, same check for a neighbour who's line runs under my garden and onwards for a further 100m, yields exactly the same speed predictions as for me  ???
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RealAleMadrid

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 10:36:57 AM »

I seem to recall from other posts that the estimator is based on the distance to the DP (distribution point) which may be some distance from the property. Someone ( possibly a sheep or eagle !) may be able to confirm this. This would explain why several properties can have the same estimate :)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 10:39:13 AM by RealAleMadrid »
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renluop

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 12:35:14 PM »

OT somewhat but I found this useful to quite accurately walking distances
http://www.freemaptools.com/measure-distance.htm
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kitz

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 12:42:26 PM »

Quote
I seem to recall from other posts that the estimator is based on the distance to the DP (distribution point) which may be some distance from the property.

Thats what I'd heard too..  and it certainly does make sense why 7LM and his neighbour get the same prediction... or it could even be to the JBF
I know when a little birdie wearing a black woolly coat very kindly told me my line details, the measurement given was to the JBF.
The UG Joint Box serves several neighbouring properties..  and is actually 100m from the DP.   


------------
Make of these results what you will.

Out of interest I just put into the checker details for a property near my DP  this is the result..  so it should in theory be 100m nearer than mine.

Code: [Select]
High Low High Low
FTTC Range A (Clean) 80 72.6 20 20 -- Available
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 80 62.4 20 19 -- Available

...  and for mine (and all 5 properties on the same JBF as me)

Code: [Select]
High Low High Low
FTTC Range A (Clean) 79.5 60 20 19.6 -- Available
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 70.9 43.8 20 13.9 -- Available

....  and interestingly properties on the same DP, but JBF which should actually give a slightly longer total line length of approx 100m more than mine.

Code: [Select]
High Low High Low
FTTC Range A (Clean) 80 66.8 20 20 -- Available
FTTC Range B (Impacted) 80 54 20 18.2 -- Available


Since they all come from the same DP, that would rule out estimates of distance to the DP alone, so they must also be allowing something somewhere for the JBF (for UG cables).   It would also imply that perhaps someone on my JBF isnt quite getting their full wack, which is bringing down the estimate from my JBF

They obviously are updating records depending upon what houses in the surrounding areas are getting...  because this was my first estimate before anyone was connected.

Code: [Select]
WBC FTTC       Up to 62.6        Up to 20





« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 12:44:29 PM by kitz »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 01:09:30 PM »

OT somewhat but I found this useful to quite accurately walking distances
http://www.freemaptools.com/measure-distance.htm

Very useful, and confirms 550 metres.   I will be very (pleasantly) surprised if my connection gets anywhere near the predicted 53-69 downstream speeds then, even before the neighbours find out and join the FTTC club with their crosstalk.   I'm not too disappointed TBH, dunno what I'd do with it if I did get all that speed.   :)

But I can confirm the checker is taking some form of distance into its calculations, as I checked for the house that's right against the cabinet and, as you'd expect, it gets predicted the full 80/20 both high and low.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about network topology to comment on DP locations.  I am aware there's lots of BT ducting under my garden, with two underground junction boxes of some kind, each of which either fan out to neighbours, or myself, or continue towards end of line.   But I seem to recall already being told, these are not actual DPs?
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Black Sheep

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 04:21:58 PM »

The estimated speed is only given to the DP. It is calculated from various tools like SEAM, Network Records and works out the insertion loss using some kind of Hogwarts formula.  :)

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kitz

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 04:34:37 PM »

Quote
I am aware there's lots of BT ducting under my garden, with two underground junction boxes of some kind, each of which either fan out to neighbours, or myself, or continue towards end of line.   But I seem to recall already being told, these are not actual DPs

BS will be best to answer but possibly a JBF?  (Joint Box Footway).
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Black Sheep

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 04:51:17 PM »

Nice piccie, Kitz.

Obviously, 7LM is on an underground fed estate. The DP will have been provisioned where the planner deemed to be the ideal spot at the time of planning.
This really can be anywhere on the UG estate ?? There may be a joint/s in the JF's where the rest of the houses 'Tee out', but there could then be a larger cable routed back to another JF a hundred metres away, that houses the actual DP joint.

There is no set rule for where a DP is sited.   
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kitz

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 04:55:09 PM »

Thank you for the info :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 05:03:18 PM »

De nada .....  ;) ;D
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 05:37:36 PM »

Thanks, my understanding is much improved.

The actual cable run is along a main road that goes back a century or two, with well spread out houses along its path, before it reaches my plot.  So I am guessing the DP will be somewhere in the middle of that cable run, which would explain the optimistic speed estimates.

Most of the neighbouring houses, including mine and others 'downstream' are fairly new, and probably built long after the location for DP was chosen.   Most of the wiring is indeed underground, although a few poles exist to supply flying wires to individual houses.

One of the holes in my garden is about 20 x 10 inches, and was installed when a pole was removed, a few years ago.   I got a peek inside recently when an engineer was checking it and I suspect it contains just the cylindrical junction thingie that used to be atop the pole.   The pole used to have flying wires to another house, but they now fly from a different pole, which was planted at the same time.

The larger hole, which follows after about 100 ft in an underground duct,  is a more substantial manhole cover, about 30x15, and I think has been there a long time.  I've never seen inside it, but I suspect that is where most of the neighbours' lines are teed off.
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tickmike

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 07:48:33 PM »

Quote
I am aware there's lots of BT ducting under my garden, with two underground junction boxes of some kind, each of which either fan out to neighbours, or myself, or continue towards end of line.   But I seem to recall already being told, these are not actual DPs

BS will be best to answer but possibly a JBF?  (Joint Box Footway).
Thank you for making clear what JBF means, what is a DP ?

@ Kitz ...You have /Had a List of these abbreviation somewhere but I can not find it ! Maybe you could have a link on the front page.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 08:20:09 PM by tickmike »
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burakkucat

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Re: BTW checker & line length
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 07:54:01 PM »

DP == Distribution Point (Can be aerial, at the top of a pole, on the side of a building, etc, or can be underground.)
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