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Author Topic: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?  (Read 6662 times)

HPsauce

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Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« on: September 11, 2014, 10:24:35 AM »

Intriguing one this........
I moved from Be to PlusNet some months ago. On Be I'd been stable for years on a3dB profile, but with a non-standard (low) level of interleaving that was enough to contain occasional unidentified interference that would make the non-interleaved line unstable occasionally.
At PlusNet I soon found you needed interleaving had to be off otherwise upload speeds were very limited. It didn't make sense to me, but that's the way it was and you had to have interleaving on or off the same on both Up and Down (why?).
I let DLM do its thing and ended up with a 3dB profile which worked fine though speeds were nonetheless about 10% to 15% lower than with Be, both ways.  :(

On Tuesday this week I noticed lots of service interruptions during the day; I also saw some BT guys working on my local cabinet when I passed it (just saying........  ;) ) it's some distance away and not visible from my house.
Late in the evening I had an interruption that didn't recover and after a couple of router reboots could see that it wasn't getting DNS so called PN. A few minutes wait (it was 11pm or so) and got someone helpful.

At first they thought a change of DNS would sort it but then realised I was connecting, and re-connecting, to the same overloaded "rack" - their word. So after some reconfiguration at their end and a router power cycle all was well again.

The tech said (I knew) there had been loads of resyncs during the day (one of which must have triggered the DND weirdness) and that he would monitor the line and call me the next day near the start of his evening shift if there was anything significant.

Well there was, loads more resyncs yesterday (Wed) and he duly called me about 5pm. I was running DSLstats (thanks  ;D ) and could see the noise margin varying through the day and resyncs when it got down to about 2. After multiple resyncs it went to 6dB but after a while (hour or so) reverted to 3dB again and the frequent resync cycle restarted.

After some discussion he said that it looked like DLM was trying to go lower than 3dB so he would make some changes to stop that, wasn't 100% clear to me what changes but I asked that interleaving stayed OFF if possible.
Another resync after his changes and I was back on 6dB but oddly at a much lower speed (13.6mbps) than during the day when on 6dB (about 15.5mbps and 17mbps on 3dB).
Then, strangely, about 2 hours later (about 8pm) the SNRM reported by the router jumped by 3dB to around 9, where it still is now over 14 hours later.  :'( The connection speed is unchanged, no resyncs logged, and has been constant since 6pm yesterday.

This seems very odd and I'm not sure I believe the "DLM trying to go below 3dB" analysis at all.
Any thoughts from the gurus, other than some massive source of interference was switched off about 8pm last night and is still off?

I can also see on the SNRM graph a plateau of higher value (by maybe .4dB) from about 11:30pm to 7:15am which presumably represents some source of interference that was turned off for that time. Nothing in my house matches that for sure.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 10:29:02 AM by HPsauce »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 12:18:14 PM »

Haven't had time to digest your post HP, just saw lots of LOS mentions. Wondered if this may have played a part .....

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=14412.0
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boost

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 01:05:04 PM »

You got a call back! :)

Although, this is both good and bad.

Emails full of BS can be dissected. A telephone conversation gives you nothing to refer to.

I would still commend him on the callback :D
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HPsauce

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2014, 02:52:43 PM »

I don't think the BT work was relevant, in fact I "think" I've found the cause of the disconnections.
Yes, it's a dodgy switched-mode PSU!  >:D

A fairly chunky one as it powers a TV/monitor - 12V/5A. Binned and replaced, lucky I had a "spare" (multi-voltage laptop unit with exchangeable connectors).

I've also rebooted the router and it's gone back to 6dB margin and a half-decent speed - 15.2mbps at 5.9dB.
I still don't believe the "DLM trying to go below 3dB" analysis though, I think that's just increasing interference driving the SNRM down.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 02:54:46 PM by HPsauce »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2014, 03:49:28 PM »

yeah the analysis was wrong, DLM doesnt have lower than 3db profiles and there is no SRA on BTW based adsl so they cant change target snrm on the fly either.  You simply had some form of noise injection which thankfully you have found.
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kitz

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 07:36:11 PM »

Quote
I still don't believe the "DLM trying to go below 3dB" analysis though

No me neither. The DLM doesnt work like that.  It has a fixed set of parameters.
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HPsauce

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2014, 07:47:03 PM »

Thanks, what I thought too.  8)
With my replacement PSU I can still see a smallish (0.3dB or so) change in SNRM when I turn the TV/monitor (it does both jobs - 19" monitor with Freeview tuner built in) on/off, but it's stable around that, unlike the previous one.
As a precaution I've ordered a brand new replacement anyway. The current PSU was for other purposes, powering laptops.

Meanwhile I didn't get a 2nd callback (that was promised!) from PN  :'( so I've just updated the ticket requesting a reset back to a normal profile so that DLM can do its thing again, hopefully getting me back to 3dB.
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kitz

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2014, 07:58:28 PM »

At least you found out what it was.

When you say slight .3dB when you turn on/on, is it just a quick spike, or more permanent.  Sorry I couldnt figure out which you meant.
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HPsauce

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2014, 08:08:15 PM »

Sorry, permanent. That's the problem, I know what I mean, but the words are open to interpretation.  :-[
e.g. 5.9dB just now (unplugged), 5.8/5.7dB (on standby) and 5.6dB in use.
All nicely shown and graphed by DSLstats.
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kitz

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM »

Damn, I was hoping for your sake that it would be a quick spike.   If its a decline then thats not good, because if it happens each time, its further going to eat away your SNRm

Hopefully things will improve with a new replacement. :fingers:
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NewtronStar

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 08:50:55 PM »

Not worry I have plenty of LCD and LED TV's around the house when switching on each TV one by one I see the SNRM drop 0.3dB and the next TV 0.6dB and then the next one the SNRM has gone down by 1.0 dB.

Have posted about this issue many months ago with LCD/LED TV's effecting SNRM loss on the Modem, but have not had a satisfactory explanation why these TV's are interfering with the modem, some of thoses TV's are many meters away from the modem.
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HPsauce

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 08:57:05 PM »

Interesting; I wonder if it's radiated interference or injected into the mains?
If I can be bothered I might try my unit on a 12V battery and see whether it is the screen or PSU that is worse.
PSU (the newer one) on its own (not connected to TV/monitor) seems to have no effect, but maybe without any load the guts do very little.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2014, 09:05:59 PM »

Interesting; I wonder if it's radiated interference or injected into the mains?
If I can be bothered I might try my unit on a 12V battery and see whether it is the screen or PSU that is worse.
PSU (the newer one) on its own (not connected to TV/monitor) seems to have no effect, but maybe without any load the guts do very little.

You will find it's only when the screen is on it effects the SNRM that would say the PSU is not the cause but the workings inside the screen when in the on position that is causing interference.
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HPsauce

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2014, 09:36:56 PM »

Well, my problem earlier in the week was definitely the PSU, but that was probably masking smaller effects from the screen.
Now I see the largest step is from no power to standby, then a smaller one to fully on.
When I get the proper replacement PSU I'll be able to do some comparison tests; all very interesting nonetheless.  :graduate:
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NewtronStar

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Re: Should I believe the analysis by a PlusNet tech?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2014, 10:01:00 PM »

Well, my problem earlier in the week was definitely the PSU, but that was probably masking smaller effects from the screen.
Now I see the largest step is from no power to standby, then a smaller one to fully on.
When I get the proper replacement PSU I'll be able to do some comparison tests; all very interesting nonetheless.  :graduate:

You have to remember even on standby a TV and Moniters well receive a supply of voltage to the internal circuitry it's like PC sleep mode, my samsung 40 inch LED TV sends out a 7Mhz signal from the board when in standby mode, My Old 32 inch cathode ray TV was a lot quieter  :o

Yes HPsauce it would be excellent if you could find and cure the relationship between Moniter and the SNRM loss to modem as it's been annoying me for well over 3 months, haved tried the RF3 and it made things worse (more SNRM loss).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 10:16:35 PM by NewtronStar »
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