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Author Topic: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.  (Read 9030 times)

WWWombat

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 07:55:04 PM »

I think it was Virgin media, in 2007, that used the term first:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3125-virgin-media-radio-advertising-fibre-optic-broadband-confuses-users.html

And the complaints rained in from Sky, TalkTalk, and the public, including complaints that it wasn't fibre all the way.

Yet ASA upheld none of the claims in early 2008:
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3391-asa-rules-on-virgin-fibre-optic-broadband-claims.html
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NewtronStar

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 08:41:44 PM »

Yes we all want true fibre FTTP but it's just not cost effective for any EU unless your rich.
it would cost me 2500 for 1000 meters

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=0WyIM7tTGGgucFf0dXUIWK4XSAplAmgrRZNg5Pk%2B5%2F%2BkRgB7BL4KNYn%2FlKx2YB4Qe6YShZ82RgLO%0AGLsH2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D







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c6em

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 08:51:10 PM »

Ok, seeing as no one seems to be going to do anything other than moan on forums....
perhaps over the next few months when I have a moment I'll put in a complaint into the ASA requesting that they re-evaluate their policy on this now that there are a significant number of full FTTP players in the domestic market.
I already have one success with the ASA in relation to broadband so I'm known for being one who knows a bit
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kitz

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 09:16:11 PM »

Quote
The adjudication held that the co-axial element of the Virgin Media broadband network was only a small proportion in comparison to the fibre backhaul.

So there you go... floodgates were opened.. and since adsl backhaul is also over fibre, then no wonder they cant back down now  :no:

@c6em..  yep go for it :)  :thumbs:
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Chrysalis

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 11:46:53 PM »

ASA failed to nip it in the bud early days and now have dug a hole 1000000m deep they cant get out of with fibre advertising.

So when someone finally does mass FTTP and does ad's they cant differentiate.

So true.   It was easier when we just had cable or adsl.  Who was the first to start using the term fibre does anyone know.

@Alex..    :lol:

It was VM, the ASA let it go so then after FTTC was launched everyone else jumped on.
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Black Sheep

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 08:48:51 AM »

C'mon guys, do we not need to look at this with a tongue-in-cheek approach ??

Advertising per-se has always been to highlight (or bull-up) the product. As Kitz comments, the very vast majority of the total FTTC product is over Fibre. FTTP is completely Fibre.
With advertising aimed at trying to capture the audience's attention within a very short time span, and probably 98% of the FTTC product being Fibre anyway, I cant blame OR/VM/ISP's for advertising it as 'Fibre Broadband'.

I'm not going to pour over every single advert or advertising campaign, but I will bet there's a 'Terms & Conditions' stating in more detail what the product is all about ??
How on Earth do you begin to 'sell' a product as speed-sensitive as VDSL ?? You'd have to flog it as 'Superfast Hybrid Broadband', then try and keep the audiences attention as to what that hell that really means ?? The high-percentage of EU's aren't that bothered, take it from me. If it runs faster than what it did before, they're ecstatic.

If 'WALLS thick pork sausages' can advertise their product as just that ..... pork sausages .... when in fact there is only 61% pork in them ( http://wallsproperfood.co.uk/our-food/sausages/ ), then I would think the ASA will politely decline any attempts to scupper what they deem to be an acceptable advertisement practice ??  :)



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Chrysalis

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 09:19:44 AM »

all that will happen is FTTP will be called TRUE fibre broadband :)

like TRUE unlimited is no throttling.

I think counting the backbone as part of the description is entirely misleading, FTTC is essentially a hybrid copper/fibre product which imo doesnt count as fibre broadband, but what is done is done.

e.g. we could call adsl fibre broadband on that basis which shows how silly it is.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 09:22:56 AM by Chrysalis »
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roseway

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 09:49:26 AM »

I suppose the real question is whether anyone is being seriously misled by the advertising. I don't think there's any deliberate intent to deceive - as BS said, they have to have a snappy name to distinguish the product from earlier products, and acronyms like FTTC don't hack it. People who don't understand the technical details won't bother so long as they get a faster connection, and people who do understand the technical details will know what they're buying anyway.

This is a very competitive business, so it's inevitable that ISPs will inflate their descriptions of the product as far as they can justify. If they were all forced to stop calling FTTC "Fibre broadband", what difference would it make to the punters?
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  Eric

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 04:10:46 PM »

"I think counting the backbone as part of the description is entirely misleading, FTTC is essentially a hybrid copper/fibre product which imo doesnt count as fibre broadband, but what is done is done."

I take your point, Chrysallis. But using purely FTTC as the example, if the Cab is outside your door, then 99% of the circuit is Fibre ........... ? It's all relative and you can't portray that over a 30-second TV advert.
As Eric has pointed out, the ASA will only be interested in whether the EU is being deceived ..... and the contract will make sure they're not.

Don't take my word for it, ask the OR chaps on TBB ............. the only confusion a small percentage of EU's have, is that we engineers will be digging their garden up and putting in a new fibre cable. When I explained the situation, they're more than happy with the fact they have super-fast DSL and with no remedial work done to their property.

I don't mean to be derogatory to anybody here at all, but I think this is the literal, 'Storm in a teacup' situation.  ;) :)
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burakkucat

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 05:35:25 PM »

This has got me thinking . . .  ::)

I could, for example, say that my (wired) telephony service is digital and not analogue. Ever since the roll-out of System X and System Y exchanges in the early 1980s all trunk, junction and other major circuits are digital. It is only the local loop from EABSE to The Cattery that is analogue. So if I was making a telephone call to Kitz in Blackpool (or Black Sheep, elsewhere in Lancashire) the percentage of the total circuit that is analogue will be minuscule.  :angel:
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Chrysalis

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 08:56:27 PM »

The ASA is a weak regulator BS, they generally only care if one isp is outdoing another via dodgy advertising, usually if all isp's play the same game (even if it confuses the customer) they let it go.

There is a small chance in future they may do a U turn, as they did a U turn on unlimited advertising a while back (initially they didnt care about throttling and FUP's).  But I think there is no chance of that until there is a mass market FTTP product.

and I am not blaming any particular isp here, virgin media were the first to claim fibre broadband.  So if anyone they would be to blame.  They got away with it so obviously others ultimately followed, but it isnt to do with the backbone as noone has ever claimed adsl is fibre.
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JGO

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 06:32:46 PM »

Looks like true fibre is one stage further away :=

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/broadband/390964/bt-hits-800mbits-sec-using-copper-lines

If one had a suspicious mind, the fact that snooping is easier on copper pairs might spring to mind  !   Seriously, it sounds like a gift for interference pickup - they could use this newfangled coax cabled instead - mass producible since ICI produced polythene in 1940.   
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Chrysalis

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 10:04:19 PM »

yeah BT will do g.fast before FTTP, simply because its cheaper in the short/mid term.  Even tho more expense in the long term.
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boost

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2014, 10:25:49 AM »

C'mon guys, do we not need to look at this with a tongue-in-cheek approach ??


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JGO

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Re: "Get Fibre Broadband" .... Breaking the Trade Descriptions Act 1968.
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2014, 01:19:42 PM »

Boost,
 Successful design engineers ALWAYS look out for snags;
 it is the "optimists"  who have  Mega   failures.
 
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