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Author Topic: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated  (Read 7401 times)

G.DMT

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This is my first post on Kitz, and I would like to start off by posting graphs of

Bits per Tone
Quiet Line Noise (QLN)
Signal to Noise Ratio
and
Line Characteristics [HLog(f)]
 
I wrote scripts to harvest the raw data from my Billion 7800N, and parse it.
It is running in bridge mode with PPPoE from a separate router.

(yes I have 'adjusted' the SNR margin reported to the exchange to the optimum possible
- it valiantly holds onto a 5120 Kbps connection to squeeze into the 4.5 Mbps BRAS IP Profile)

I did the graphing with some handy gnuplot-fu until I came accross some
neat graphing shell script on http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com

I had no idea that Bald_Eagle1 was carrying on the great work here on Kitz forums.
So a big Tip'o The Hat to him!

It has been a long, long road to get this line to perform at the rate it does now.

I would appreciate it if some of you who are more experienced in interpreting the suspicious peaks and troughs of QLN graphs would take a look and tell me what you think.

Oh, and here are some recent stats, in case that helps.

Max:    Upstream rate = 984 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5760 Kbps
Channel:        INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5184 Kbps

                Down            Up
SNRM(dB):        3.3             17.0
LATN(dB):        61.0            31.5
SATN(dB):        61.0            0.0
TxPwr(dBm):      19.4            12.5
ATTNDR(Kbps):   5760            984

Since Link time = 1 days 6 hours 20 min 15 sec
FEC:            14697634                1
CRC:            31975           3
ES:             8501            0
SES:            12              0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0

        Training Margin(Q4 in dB):      65444
> adsl --version
adsl version 1.0
ADSL PHY: AnnexA version - A2pB025f.d22k

I live in a rural market1 area on an 8 Meg exchange.
No LLU. No Competition. No hope of any upgrade
Long, noisy line. ~4000m

Any contribution to my limited insight will be Much Appreciated.  :)

[edit:] p.s. For clarity: the Date used for the 'Data obtained' label on the bottom left of the graphs does in fact come from the modem. Is is returned from the 'sntp-date' command.
Unfortunately the SNMP time is not automatically corrected on a bridged modem. :-(
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 06:43:09 PM by G.DMT »
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G.DMT

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 06:10:32 PM »


Oh and another thing.

It would be true to say that just about everything i know about interpreting QLN graphs (which is not much) I read in these 3 links that Google found for me:

ADSL2 Modem Diagnostics Software
for Field Testing
http://www.kurthelectronic.com/fileadmin/user_upload/com-files/Documentation/DrDSL_White_Paper.pdf

Detecting Bridged Tap and Noise Interference in VDSL2
Access Networks using the JDSU SmartClass™ TPS
http://www.jdsu.com/productliterature/sctpsbridgedtap_an_tfs_tm_ae.pdf

HST-3000 Handheld Services Tester
Infineon ADSL2+/VDSL2 SIM
http://www.jdsu.com/ProductLiterature/hst3000infineon-ds-tfs-tm-ae.pdf

So if anyone would to care to contribute to increasing my understanding- or can suggest any further helpful material that would sure be appreciated too!
thanks  ;)
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 08:00:38 PM »

Hello, G.DMT & welcome to the forum.


I did the graphing with some handy gnuplot-fu until I came accross some
neat graphing shell script on http://huaweihg612hacking.wordpress.com


Does that mean you are a Linux rather than a Windows user?




Quote
Long, noisy line. ~4000m



Your QLN graph does appear to confirm a 'noisy' line.

I believe -140 dBm is classed as a 'quiet' line, so your spikes to around -110 dBm do suggest some interference at certain tones/frequencies, possibly caused by commercial radio stations.

Others may be able to suggest which stations would cause spikes at those particular frequencies.



Quote
Any contribution to my limited insight will be Much Appreciated.  :)



I'm not that well versed regarding ADSL connections, only getting involved with this sort of stuff since I got my FTTC/VDSL2 connection back in 2011, but as the basic principles are similar, I'll give it a go.


Your Line Attenuation looks quite high (LATN(dB):        61.0            31.5), but probably as to be expected for your 4000m line length.






                Down            Up
SNRM(dB):        3.3             17.0


Your US SNRM against a US sync speed of 448 Kbps (Channel), with an attainable (Max) rate of 984 Kbps, suggests that you could possibly achieve higher US sync speed.

I believe that some/most ISPs initially cap US sync speed at 448 Kbps by default, but some (e.g. Plusnet) are willing to uncap it on request.


The slight risk is that uncapping US sync speed may have the effect of lowering DS sync speed.




ES:             8501            0

That DS Errored Seconds count does seem very high for only 1 days 6 hours 20 min 15 sec DSL connection time.






Quote
[edit:] p.s. For clarity: the Date used for the 'Data obtained' label on the bottom left of the graphs does in fact come from the modem. Is is returned from the 'sntp-date' command.
Unfortunately the SNMP time is not automatically corrected on a bridged modem. :-(



Could you not grab the PC's local system time & use that in your scripts?

That's what my older Windows batch file scripts & current programs use.



Have you created any scripts that would record & plot graphs for stats obtained 24/7?

They do tend to give a good indications of patterns of 'interference' and/or sudden peaks of errors that may warrant further investigation.



Your graphs are formatted slightly differently to those prduced by my Windows programs.

Could you possibly zip the log(s) you have used so that I can attempt to plot the data in a more familiar format for me?


As you are seeing DS FEC errors, it suggests that DS Interleaving is ON at some level & as the value is 1, it is OFF for US.


What data do you get from the adsl info --stats command?

The D: value would confirm the depth of interleaving & INP & delay would confirm other related details.



Just for comparison purposes, I have attached a snapshot montage from another G.DMT connection, but unfortunately, I can't recall that user's line length.


EDIT:

I have also attached 3 days worth of ongoing stats from a low speed, due to line length, ADSL2 connection.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 08:23:03 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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boost

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 08:24:20 PM »

Nice graphs but they need to be bigger and have the individual tones underneath if possible?

At a glance, HLOG looks fine so just EMI/RFI hurting you?
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 09:06:54 PM »

G.DMT, you have a PM.  :)

And if you could let Mr Eagle have a copy of the raw data which was used to create those graphs, then I can "lift" a copy from the "Eagle's Nest".

Without sight of the raw data I am very tempted to say that the first significant peak present (from the left) in your QLN plot is just BBC Radio 4, broadcasting on 198 kHz Long Wave, from Droitwich.

Edited to rule out the Droitwich transmitter and to rule in either the Burghead or the Westerglen transmitter. ;)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 04:36:49 PM by burakkucat »
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G.DMT

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 10:51:13 PM »

Quote
Does that mean you are a Linux rather than a Windows user?

It does indeed. Well spotted. I guess it Takes one to Know one, eh? ;-)
Quote
Your QLN graph does appear to confirm a 'noisy' line.

I believe -140 dBm is classed as a 'quiet' line, so your spikes to around -110 dBm do suggest some interference at certain tones/frequencies, possibly caused by commercial radio stations.

Others may be able to suggest which stations would cause spikes at those particular frequencies.

That seems like a good idea for me to improve the graph plotting with more informative x-axis. 

Quote
Your Line Attenuation looks quite high (LATN(dB):        61.0            31.5), but probably as to be expected for your 4000m line length.

I am putting that figure of 61 down to mis-reporting by the Billion firmware.
IIRC it was reported as 51.1 - 51.2 on my Netgear DGN3500B and around 52.3 on HomeHub3 (both Infineon AR9)
Similarly around 51.1 on my Netgear DGN2200v3 (Broadcom)

So I am just treating that as a 'maximum reading' as it were.
 

Quote
                Down            Up
SNRM(dB):        3.3             17.0


Your US SNRM against a US sync speed of 448 Kbps (Channel), with an attainable (Max) rate of 984 Kbps, suggests that you could possibly achieve higher US sync speed.

I believe that some/most ISPs initially cap US sync speed at 448 Kbps by default, but some (e.g. Plusnet) are willing to uncap it on request.
The ISP on this line is BT.
Do they uncap upstream?
Or is this yet another reason to abandon them as soon as contract permits.

Quote
ES:             8501            0

That DS Errored Seconds count does seem very high for only 1 days 6 hours 20 min 15 sec DSL connection time.

Fortunately the SES is not too high to live with though.


Quote
Could you not grab the PC's local system time & use that in your scripts?

That's what my older Windows batch file scripts & current programs use.
I tag the data file with the time when it was collected.

I mentioned it to explain the implausible date.
- and in the hope that somebody here might know of a command for manually setting the clock!
 
Quote
Have you created any scripts that would record & plot graphs for stats obtained 24/7?
Sure. I scraped the status from http on a cron job every 60 seconds for the DGN3500B for months.
Then I rewrote that for the DGN2200.
I just appended a line of comma separated data to my log file each time.
But once I got the line stable at 3500, things didn't fluctuate so much. so eventually I stopped.

I have only had the Billion for 15 days so I recon I have done pretty well so far!

ATM I grep the data to pick out the essentials, generate the graphics and display a summary.
The current data files overwrite the previous.

There is such a large amount of data each time, i had not quite decided yet what to append to a log and what to discard!

Here is the summary I see each time I run the script.
UPTIME1: 14 days
SNTP date: Sat Jan 15 19:11:43 2000
Link time: 1 days 6 hours 20 min 15 sec
RETRAIN_REASON1: 1
RETRAIN_STRING: kAdslPhysStatusNoDefect -
SNRM(dB):        3.3             17.0
LATN(dB):        61.0            31.5
TxPwr(dBm):      19.4            12.5
RATE_SUMMARY: 5184 448 5760 984
SESSION_START: 2014-07-14 11:12:18
ADSL_TRAINING_MARGIN1: 65444
 
Quote
Your graphs are formatted slightly differently to those prduced by my Windows programs.

Could you possibly zip the log(s) you have used so that I can attempt to plot the data in a more familiar format for me?

As above - I haven't actually started keeping a proper log of the data I have extracted yet. :-(
But I can certainly zip the full current set.

Quote
As you are seeing DS FEC errors, it suggests that DS Interleaving is ON at some level & as the value is 1, it is OFF for US.

As you would expect, interleaving is on.
hence the
'Channel:        INTR'

Quote
What data do you get from the adsl info --stats command?

The D: value would confirm the depth of interleaving & INP & delay would confirm other related details.
I didn't want to post too much all at once, for my first post.
I should have guessed that to post more data is always better! ;-)
I can attach it now.

Quote
Just for comparison purposes, I have attached a snapshot montage from another G.DMT connection, but unfortunately, I can't recall that user's line length.

Thankyou. I shall pore over that later. Always good to see some elses data.
 
[edit:] I had some trouble trying to post with 4 .txt file attachements.
Fortunately posting my reply then adding a zip file afterwards has sorted that out. :-)
This zip archive contains the raw data.out. All the other files are created from it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 01:00:17 AM by G.DMT »
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G.DMT

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 11:31:37 PM »

Nice graphs but they need to be bigger and have the individual tones underneath if possible?

At a glance, HLOG looks fine so just EMI/RFI hurting you?

@boost
Thanks.
You are right. I will change the plotting of the graphs to have a longer and more usefully labelled x-axis
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 12:21:05 AM »

A quick look at the raw data for the QLN plot suggests to me that your line suffers from the effects of three broadcast transmitters --

198 kHz Radio 4
810 kHz Radio Scotland
909 kHz Radio 5

Making use of a certain website I obtain a map, copy attached below. Are you located in Scotland?  :-\
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G.DMT

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 12:34:30 AM »

Aye.
;-)

You would make a Brilliant Detective.

 
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 01:01:02 AM »

Purrfect!  :D
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 12:22:32 PM »


This zip archive contains the raw data.out. All the other files are created from it.



I got chance to have a look at the raw data late on last night.

It became apparent that not all of it was being captured in your Linux & My Windows graphs.

(BTW, I'm not, never have been & incredibly likely never will be a Linux user - it was that I recognised the style of the graphs & therefore 'knew' who the original author was - Miaow) ;) 


I've had a quick dabble at amending my programs & when I get home from work I'll hopefully have time to explain what would benefit from a slight & easy to implement tweak here & there).


In the meantime, see the attached as plotted from your data (still needing a little more work at my end).


« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 12:25:58 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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G.DMT

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 04:41:52 PM »

Thankyou for doing this Bald_Eagle1.  :)

Those graphs look great - a massive improvement!  ;D

I see that my Hlog graph is missing part of the data, and the y=axis should have a greater range.

And now that I see your plot of QLN with a sensible y-axis beginning at zero -
I don't think the higher frequency peaks look so dramatic now either.
Visually, the centre of the vertical range of the data plots seems to lie roughly around the -140 line.
 
Quote
I've had a quick dabble at amending my programs & when I get home from work I'll hopefully have time to explain what would benefit from a slight & easy to implement tweak here & there).

OkeyDokey. I will check back later on this evening.
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 05:29:28 PM »

A "good" noise-floor for a QLN plot will be between -150 to -140 dBm/Hz.

And, finally, I attribute the three peaks (198, 810 & 909 kHz) to the Westerglen transmitter.  :) 

There are some fascinating photographs taken within the site, dating from the 1940s.
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boost

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 05:51:58 PM »

A "good" noise-floor for a QLN plot will be between -150 to -140 dBm/Hz.

And, finally, I attribute the three peaks (198, 810 & 909 kHz) to the Westerglen transmitter.  :) 

There are some fascinating photographs taken within the site, dating from the 1940s.

Awesome :D
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: ADSL1 line stats Graphs - help interpreting QLN appreciated
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 11:12:43 PM »


OkeyDokey. I will check back later on this evening.



Probably the easiest way to eplain would be to send you the Windows code that you could convert to a Linux script (it's just formatted slightly differently).

If you wish me to do that, send me a PM with your email address & I'll forward it to you.

Do you already have the gnuplot manual?

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