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Author Topic: DS and US SNRM cross over  (Read 7214 times)

NewtronStar

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DS and US SNRM cross over
« on: June 28, 2014, 08:54:00 PM »

Always noticed my US SNRM had a sort of flat line and the DS SNRM would dip in the evenings, but now the US SNRM is also going up and down in the last 3 months, yet the US & DS SNRM seem to be opposite (US SNR rises in the evening and DS SNRM lowers in the evening)
Has anyone any idea why this would happen or seen this before ?

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burakkucat

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2014, 09:30:37 PM »

As we can regard the (required) signal strength as a constant, what you are seeing is the result of the rise and fall in "noise" (unwanted RF signals) over a 24 hour period. In essence, the DS frequencies being used are subject to more "noise" during the hours of darkness whereas the US frequencies being used are subject to more "noise" during the daylight hours.
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2014, 10:09:24 PM »

over a 24 hour period. In essence, the DS frequencies being used are subject to more "noise" during the hours of darkness whereas the US frequencies being used are subject to more "noise" during the daylight hours.

Thanks BC that could be the reason why US and DS SNRM cross over but I am looking for the cause of this  ;)

I have come to some conclusion that it's expansion and contraction that's the issue due to temperature changes as my eaves is faceing west so from 6pm to 9pm the sun is pelting this surface were the BT service box resides.

I have uploaded a Picture of those service blocks on the eaves, the left block in white has the wire entering the house at top right hand side of PVC door.

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burakkucat

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2014, 10:31:55 PM »

That is an interesting picture.  :)

We see the drop-cable, attached to the house via a galvanised steel "twiddle", perform a figure-of-eight and then enter the GPO / BT / Openreach enclosure. Next there is a short length of cable linking the enclosure to a galvanised steel electrical backing-box. From there exits the service-feed which then enters the house. So at some time in the past someone has made a modification. I would be tempted to look inside both the electrical backing-box and the official enclosure to see how the wires of those cables are joined together. Depending upon what I find, I might be tempted to run a new service-feed cable from inside the house to the official enclosure and ensure that the wires of the service-feed & drop-cable are soundly crimped. Then that electrical backing-box could then be removed . . .
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2014, 10:47:15 PM »

That is an interesting picture.  :)
Then that electrical backing-box could then be removed . . .

Many many Thanks BC, I don't know who put that electrical backing-box inplace, but it could have been the PVC double glazing guys who installed the front Door and all the Windows in 1990   :-\
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burakkucat

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2014, 11:05:54 PM »

but it could have been the PVC double glazing guys who installed the front Door and all the Windows in 1990   :-\

Yes, that is a distinct possibility. Assuming the service-feed entered the property through a hole drilled in the original wooden door-frame, then upon the frame's removal I can imagine that service-cable being severed. Now I am wondering how the wires have been joined . . . Hopefully not just twisted together and wrapped with some sticky-tape!  :-X
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2014, 11:35:30 PM »

but it could have been the PVC double glazing guys who installed the front Door and all the Windows in 1990   :-\

Now I am wondering how the wires have been joined . . . Hopefully not just twisted together and wrapped with some sticky-tape!  :-X

I am off this week and will have the time to explore those enclosures and take a few photo's, and it's much more interesting than cutting my hedges  :D
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Semmy

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2014, 11:57:32 PM »

I understand the current BT guidance is for a single unjointed wire from the top of the pole to your NTE5.
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 12:17:37 AM »

I understand the current BT guidance is for a single unjointed wire from the top of the pole to your NTE5.

I guess that's the way it should be on newly built homes but the BT guidance for my premises and 70% of homes was overlooked  (1955 - 1990)  ;)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 12:23:01 AM by NewtronStar »
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Black Sheep

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 07:17:48 AM »

I understand the current BT guidance is for a single unjointed wire from the top of the pole to your NTE5.

Our quality guides permit one joint between the DP (Pole) and the first socket. Of course, ideally it would be one continuous length but this isn't practical some times. For example, lets say the drop-wire has gone faulty through rubbing on tree branches over a period of time. Our remit would be to replace the whole wire Pole-to-NTTP, (Master socket or a junction box such as a BT80).
However, it may not be possible for a variety of reasons ranging from safety, to the EU not wishing to have any holes drilled. Ergo, we are allowed to install an 'Overhead Closure' at a suitable place. For info, the BT one in the picture is called a BT16 and are now obsolete.
We now use a black cylindrical tube-like design, lovingly called a 'Sausage' around these parts. In my opinion (and others for that matter), the BT16 is a far superior product.

For further info regarding our terminology, if anyone is remotely interested ............ the 'Twiddle' that B*Cat refers to is simply called a drop-wire clamp (I now prefer 'Twiddle').
The 'Figure of eight' wiring after the clamp, should really be a circle of wire and is termed as a 'Future Loop' and is put in for the very reasons discussed above, to be able to cut into it in order to fault-detect or perform remedial work.

Again, as B*Cat has pointed out, that foreign connection block has probably been introduced into the installation as a result of the glaziers accidentally cutting our wire whilst going about their work. A common occurrence.  :) 
 

 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 07:28:10 AM by Black Sheep »
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2014, 02:18:27 PM »

Black Sheep cheers for identifying and explaining the two overhead closures  :)

The cable from the foreign connection block enters the PVC door frame but then seems to disappear it must be tracked inside the frame and exits at the bottom of door frame, it would be hard to replace that cable you would need to remove the whole PVC Door frame  :(

Could I ask Black Sheep how common is it for these overhead closures to say give the EU an HR fault ?
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burakkucat

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 04:44:20 PM »

The cable from the foreign connection block enters the PVC door frame but then seems to disappear it must be tracked inside the frame and exits at the bottom of door frame, it would be hard to replace that cable you would need to remove the whole PVC Door frame  :(

If that cable should ever need replacing, it would just be cut off flush with the surface both outside & inside and abandoned. The new cable would then be routed in the most convenient fashion via a suitable hole drilled for the purpose.

Quote
Could I ask Black Sheep how common is it for these overhead closures to say give the EU an HR fault ?

I suspect you are thinking along the same lines as I am thinking . . . For I am hoping that when you carefully look inside the "foreign" electrical backing-box you will find the wires just twisted together with some insulating tape wrapped around them. Upon removal of the tape, the twisted joints are green and manky . . . the source of the developing problem in the circuit, which we have discussed previously.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 04:51:19 PM by burakkucat »
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Black Sheep

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 05:16:15 PM »

Black Sheep cheers for identifying and explaining the two overhead closures  :)

The cable from the foreign connection block enters the PVC door frame but then seems to disappear it must be tracked inside the frame and exits at the bottom of door frame, it would be hard to replace that cable you would need to remove the whole PVC Door frame  :(

Could I ask Black Sheep how common is it for these overhead closures to say give the EU an HR fault ?

No problems, NS.  :)

You are quite correct with your assumption of how the wiring navigates. It's a real bug-bear with engineer when the uPVC installer tucks not only the wire into the cavity whilst replacing the frame, but will also put the BT78/80 (Small white rectangular connection blocks) in there as well, thus ensuring no test-point for us to carry out faulting work.  :no: :no:

Alas, I couldn't really give a definitive answer as to whether HR faults are common in O/H closures.  :-[ Any joint is a potential weak-spot, and as such there's as much chance as it being in the O/H closure as being anywhere else in the D-side network ??
I do agree (like I wouldn't) with B*Cat, in that the likelihood is the wires in the illicit closure will be stripped and twisted and probably got electrical insulating tape over them. Or, connected together via a 5-amp electrical connection block. Either way, it is well worth having a butchers at it, NS. I do hope that you find a HR in there by gently pulling at the wires to see if one or both 'Ping' away ??
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burakkucat

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2014, 06:36:46 PM »

I do agree (like I wouldn't) with B*Cat,

 :friends:
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NewtronStar

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Re: DS and US SNRM cross over
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2014, 07:16:03 PM »


I do agree (like I wouldn't) with B*Cat, in that the likelihood is the wires in the illicit closure will be stripped and twisted and probably got electrical insulating tape over them. Or, connected together via a 5-amp electrical connection block. Either way, it is well worth having a butchers at it, NS. I do hope that you find a HR in there by gently pulling at the wires to see if one or both 'Ping' away ??

I'll be having a look at the illicit closure this week once I get it opened there must like 20+ odd years of layers of white paint on it, sounds like a stanley knife + small hammer and star/flat head scewdriver will be required and dear knows what kind of bugs is living inside the unit  :tongue:

If I do find the wiring connections are sub standard (twisted and probably got electrical insulating tape over them) should I use a 5amp block connector or something else ?

As if it needs any work done then I would like to sort this out and get the enclosure sealed again incase any moisture ingress becomes an issue.
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