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[tommy45]

Ok the attachments are stats taken just after the modem established sync, following being powered off for over 1hr,
And i'm now using a plug in ADSL style filter, in the test jack, following on from my other thread http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13935.0

Observations

Within a few mins the DS Attainable dropped a little, and so did the DS snr was 83672 Kbps a few mins later it's 83444 Kbps
I think that it did this  last week when i started to monitor the stats, but my DS attainable  started at, 83604 Kbps and dropped to 83376 Kbps So slightly higher this time,
But prior to the me powering off the modem and accessing the test jack my DS attainable was Downstream rate = 83144 Kbps  whilst The US had increased to 30658 Kbps and there was similar differences to both US and DS margins and also equal differences to the US attenuation increase,  since an unexplained event at around 8am some 2 or 3 days ago, 
Weird downstream decreases and the upstream increase both by similar/equal amounts
As for the suspected Fault  despite using a different filter in the test jack, when i make a call or even dial a digit, both attainable rates drop ,
Whilst the modem was powered off and disconnected , with my phone(which is corded) only connected in the test socket, I was able to hear a few pop's probably one or every 30secs or so,  also there was a rhythmic clicking similar to the clicking you got with the old 70/80's style phones with the round dial,(like a phone ringing but clicks instead)

The line has had this on and off for maybe 8yrs  there is also a faint hum/buzz present sometimes it does sometimes seem to become more audible, but when i decided to report it some 2-3yrs ago the OR guy who was called out  to the hum, said he couldn't here it, and BT tried charging me £130 for nothing , Would running CIDT show up the issue , as i'm thinking of asking my isp to do this test, otherwise it's put up with it, and possible DLM interventions because of it until it becomes more pronounced and regular, because if i report it as a PSTN fault, who ever turns up  may not find it, then i get hit with a charge and worse still the problem persists

[Bald_Eagle1]

I had a similar intermittent fault when the phone was used.

It gradually became bad enough for SNRM to drop to below zero values & cause disconnections when dialling out.

Dialling in would improve SNRM for a few hours & it would then gradually reduce again.


Purely by chance, I noticed a couple of engineers working at the pole mounted DP across the road from my house.

I watched the HG612's GUI & saw the connection resync at lower speeds each time.

Each engineer stated they hadn't touched my line as they were work on nearby neigbours' lines.


I spotted another engineer arrive & as soon as he plonked his ladder against the pole, my connection dropped.

Reporting these issues to my ISP, Plusnet an engineer replaced my drop wire from the DP, also rerouting it to go directly to the master socket at the ground floor rear of the house whereas it originally came in at the upstairs front of the house, then via a shielded high quality cable from what was the the master socket to the new master socket downstairs, the upstairs socket being converted to telephone only by back wiring from the new master socket, using a spare pair in the shielded cable.

The new drop wire didn't really cure the problem.

Another engineer evenyually visited & after explaining what I had witnessed & showing him my stats graphs showing disconnections that coincided with engineers working on the DP, (to humour me), he agreed to take a look at the DP's connections.

Before he got his screwdriver out to check/re-tighten the connections at the DP, just touching the undreground cable connection to the DP caused it to come apart in his hands (due to it being badly corroded).

He re-made that connection & after 11 months of intermittent disconnections LTOK results from visiting engineer line tests, aggressive DLM intervention etc., my connection immediately became stable & I enjoyed some of the best sync speeds & prolonged periods without disconnections that I had seen (until increased crosstalk started having a visible effect some 7 months or so later).


FWIW, the disconnections/instability always increased during warm, dry weather & decreased dramatically during cold, wet weather.


It does sound like you might have a similar issue, perhaps still in its infancy.

With a bit of luck, it will eventually deteriorate to the stage where it can be located via an engineer's TDR or FDR test.

[tommy45]

I've had a few HR type faults, One which caused the ADSL to keep dropping even if the phone wasn't in use,
It took months, it got really bad at one point, the noise during a call to BT retail to report it, became so bad the person on the other end could hear it & not me, but it suddenly stopped , and i couldn't re produce it ,  eventually one morning  i discovered the line was totally dead,  engineer  swapped both E & D side pairs,,but that was around 4yrs ago, My line is UG  all the way to exchange

 I think i may ask my ISP to run a CIDT  test, to see if it picks up the fault or not,as the test is reported to be free for sp's
As i doubt i would have much success in getting my voice provider (BT retail/india) to run that test, unless they now only use that ,  if it is an HR dis ,then it should detect it , well according to the official OR info (now a few years old) if it did detect it, it gives OR something to go on,instead of them going in blind and not finding anything

[tommy45]

Well this fault is getting  more weird , The attainable rate seem to show a drop 2 times a day, as does the SNR and

The first results are from, the 27/5/14 till   when i powered down  for an hour  so a re-sync, 3/6/14 @21:00 today,

[tommy45]

Well i spent a long time on the phone to Plusnet, asked for them to run a CIDT on the line, to be told by the adviser  that he did not access to that test, So after 2-3days of waiting for this to be passed to the faults department,  i get an e-mail asking me to run a speed test/IP profile check on the BT PT , before they can proceed further ,Which doesn't instil a lot of confidence

What good or help is that to anyone? The reported fault isn't affecting throughput or causing re syncs, certainly not during the past  2 weeks or so that i have been monitoring the connection,
My attainable rates have dropped quite a bit, Making calls now only seems to impact the upstream attainable rate and SNR were as previously it would impact both up and downstream ,Also when using the phone there seems to be an increase in errors mainly on the downstream and an increase in upstream bit swapping, also the upstream power and attenuation has shown a small increase

[Bald_Eagle1]

TBH, I can't see an obvious 'fault'.

However, as the data you have posted is all from different times during the day, it could just be expected fluctuations.

Do you have the ongoing stats montage(s) for the period in question that might show either gradual fluctuations or sudden changes?


The 1st attachment depicts an example of what my intermittent fault looked like over a prolonged period.


The fault was finally fixed in May 2012 & the 2nd example depicts the most recnt 60 days worth.

[tommy45]

When you say montage, what do you mean, fully Monty ? I have the ongoing stats set to take a snapshot once every 24hrs

And my attainable rates have dipped  since i started monitoring  nearly every day they have gotten lower, The SNR's have also decreased and the upstream power has increased

But if i make a call  the attainable rates and the SNR levels both have dropped for the duration of the call, same thing happens when i receive a call, even if i don't answer the ringing voltage alone is enough to impact the VDSL signal , the only reason IMO I'm not seeing disconnects is due to having spare noise margin on the upstream was 15.1db and is currently 14.5db and the downstream which was 7.3 db is now 6.5db 

But the voice should not impact the VDSL that could well be a sign of a HR type fault, i don't see that i should have to wait until it gets so bad that my bb becomes unusable and clobbered by DLM ect

Infact  the 3 times that DLM has intervened in the past 6-8mths may well be down to what i'm now able to observe , use of the phone also causes more errors, and we know that dlm works from pre determined error rate thresholds ,

[Bald_Eagle1]

When you say montage, what do you mean, fully Monty ? I have the ongoing stats set to take a snapshot once every 24hrs

Yes, that's the one.

The graphing program (graphpd.exe) will generate the latest 24 hours worth of graphs for the montage each day, at the time specified in the GUI.

If you wish to generate the montage for a number of days, hours or minutes (working back from the current time), run graphpd.exe, either manually from the Scripts folder or via the GUI button & specify the period.

e.g 4 d for 4 days, 4 h for 4 hours or 4 m for 4 minutes

And my attainable rates have dipped  since i started monitoring  nearly every day they have gotten lower, The SNR's have also decreased and the upstream power has increased

But if i make a call  the attainable rates and the SNR levels both have dropped for the duration of the call, same thing happens when i receive a call, even if i don't answer the ringing voltage alone is enough to impact the VDSL signal , the only reason IMO I'm not seeing disconnects is due to having spare noise margin on the upstream was 15.1db and is currently 14.5db and the downstream which was 7.3 db is now 6.5db 

But the voice should not impact the VDSL that could well be a sign of a HR type fault, i don't see that i should have to wait until it gets so bad that my bb becomes unusable and clobbered by DLM ect

Infact  the 3 times that DLM has intervened in the past 6-8mths may well be down to what i'm now able to observe , use of the phone also causes more errors, and we know that dlm works from pre determined error rate thresholds ,

It would be useful to see what differences there have been over a number of days.

To keep the times along the X axis uniform, it's best to use 2, 3 4, 6, 8, 12, 24 for the period (regardless of whether you use d, h or m).


If you do wish to specifically record what happens when the phone rings or you dial out from it, try to make sure the call lasts for more than 1 minute to ensure the stats haven't reverted to 'normal' levels for the next minute's data harvest.

Alternatively, make a call or phone your number from a mobile say 5 seconds before the minute & let it ring or keep the call live until say 10 seconds past the minute.

I found that the ringing tone (unanswered) improved SNRM, attainable rates & sometimes connection stability for a few hours or so before gradually dropping to levels where error CRC & other error counts would increase massively & often the connection would resync as I had no spare SNRM to rely on.


Of course, I was initially told that my connection was performing within acceptable parameters, but perseverance on my part (along with my ISP's help - Plusnet) 'eventually' got the fault permanently repaired.

[tommy45]

Done a 14 day montage which shows nearly all the info i have  since i started collecting stats, Most of the dips in attainable and snr are down to phone usage incoming and outgoing 

Code: [Select]

=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= Plink log 2014.06.09 21:00:18 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 29687 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80924 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.5 14.5
Attn(dB): 13.8 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 3.8
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 239 237
M: 1 1
T: 23 42
R: 0 16
S: 0.0955 0.3781
L: 20104 5374
D: 1 1
I: 240 127
N: 240 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 313360438 3765054
OHFErr: 3347 305
RS: 0 1765855
RSCorr: 0 5369
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 10912 0
OCD: 245 0
LCD: 245 0
Total Cells: 2373521654 0
Data Cells: 715355718 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 2232 224
SES: 0 0
UAS: 24 24
AS: 518261

Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.65 3.98
OR: 116.09 64.22
AgR: 80103.09 20063.54

Bitswap: 275390/275390 1441/1441

Total time = 1 days 23 hours 58 min 5 sec
FEC: 0 5369
CRC: 3347 305
ES: 2232 224
SES: 0 0
UAS: 24 24
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 13 min 5 sec
FEC: 0 6
CRC: 5 2
ES: 4 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 11
CRC: 3 0
ES: 2 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 23 hours 58 min 5 sec
FEC: 0 704
CRC: 538 54
ES: 383 39
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 0 352
CRC: 432 48
ES: 344 44
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 5 days 23 hours 57 min 39 sec
FEC: 0 5369
CRC: 3347 305
ES: 2232 224
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

[tommy45]

Here are  35 mins of stats, there is  3 incoming calls  and one outgoing call  made in this time

[Bald_Eagle1]

Now that could be useful information.

Which were the incoming & outgoing calls?

I think that sudden reductions of anything more than 1 dB in SNRM when using the phone are signs of a brewing HR fault, especially as you could demonstrate it on demand if necessary.

Many users see SNRM reductions of up to 3 dB every night, but they gradually occur over a few hours & gradually improve as daylight approaches, so it's not the amount of reduction that is the issue, it's the speed at which the reductions occur that is relevant.

The more or less 3dB sudden reduction made quite a difference to your attainable rates.

However, as it's not actually affecting your sync speeds or causing disconnections, I reckon you would have an uphill struggle to arrange an engineer's visit.

Unfortunately, I imagine you'll just have to wait until it gets more severe before reporting it as a 'fault'.


At least you'll be able to keep an eye on & record 'things' over as long a period as necessary.

[tommy45]

Well it's been reported as a fault to the isp, If they do run a CIDT test with modem in sync, and it detects a HR or other fault, i shouldn't have an issue  getting a BTOR SFI  engineer on the job, The attainable has reduced over the past 6 days, it did the same during the last period i monitored  the stats, but upon re syncing  the attainable and SNR where back at the higher levels again, strange why it does that ?

On the Attainable Graph , on the downstream side  @ 23:11 to 23:16 was an outgoing call , the others on the upstream are all incoming  calls (unanswered), it affects the upstream SNR and signal attenuation and power levels too to some extent when calls are made or received here is a screen grab of the GUI

http://i.imgur.com/glT8Qqj.png
As for the line fault if my attainable rates  where lower and the SNR 's where at 6db  i would be having disconnects and DLM would of seriously borked the connection by now . That's my argument, I also think that the fault or whatever is causing this interaction with the PTSN service  is responsible  for the previous DLM interventions, due to high error rates, as in the past months  DLM seems to have kicked in shortly after i have uploaded a lot of data, As i have observed that uploading seems to generate more errors, so the two could be  in some way connected , if they are then this fault has already had an impact on the connection, of course I'm unable to prove this theory, but i personally can't see any other reason for DLM to have intervened, apart from higher  error rates  though not high enough to cause packet loss or poor throughput

[tommy45]

Well things seem to be progressing, the upstream attainable rate and SNR  have dropped again today,here is what it looks like now when the phone is used

http://i.imgur.com/XTqNZVv.png

[tommy45]

I decided to reboot my modem last night and the attainable rates have dropped,  upstream SNR  reverted back to 15.2 whilst the downstream  remained  at 1db lower than it was when i started monitoring the stats, the interaction with the PSTN is still evident and now the DS attainable will plummet below the  sync rate, whilst the phone is in use

 

Code: [Select]

=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~= Plink log 2014.06.17 09:00:17 =~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=~=

xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 29974 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80324 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.3 15.2
Attn(dB): 13.9 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 12.4 4.2
VDSL2 framing
Bearer 0
MSGc: 18 26
B: 239 237
M: 1 1
T: 23 42
R: 0 16
S: 0.0955 0.3781
L: 20104 5374
D: 1 1
I: 240 127
N: 240 254
Counters
Bearer 0
OHF: 29622062 3889539
OHFErr: 298 47
RS: 0 2831145
RSCorr: 0 256
RSUnCorr: 0 0

Bearer 0
HEC: 1130 0
OCD: 30 0
LCD: 30 0
Total Cells: 3237450556 0
Data Cells: 122913884 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 179 41
SES: 0 0
UAS: 23 23
AS: 48992

Bearer 0
INP: 0.00 0.00
INPRein: 0.00 0.00
delay: 0 0
PER: 1.65 3.98
OR: 116.09 64.22
AgR: 80103.09 20063.54

Bitswap: 20837/20837 153/153

Total time = 13 hours 36 min 55 sec
FEC: 0 256
CRC: 298 47
ES: 179 41
SES: 0 0
UAS: 23 23
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 6 min 55 sec
FEC: 0 1
CRC: 1 0
ES: 1 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 15
CRC: 8 2
ES: 7 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 13 hours 36 min 55 sec
FEC: 0 256
CRC: 298 47
ES: 179 41
SES: 0 0
UAS: 23 23
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC: 0 0
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Since Link time = 13 hours 36 min 31 sec
FEC: 0 256
CRC: 298 47
ES: 179 41
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0


HELLO HG612
xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 29974 Kbps, Downstream rate = 80324 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79987 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
  VDSL Port Details   Upstream   Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:     29974 kbps     80324 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        4.2 dBm      12.4 dBm
====================================================================================
  VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
  Line Attenuation(dB): 3.2 15.7 22.9   N/A   N/A 9.0 20.1 30.4
Signal Attenuation(dB): 3.2 14.7 21.9   N/A   N/A 12.0 19.9 30.4
SNR Margin(dB): 15.2 15.2 15.1   N/A   N/A 6.3 6.3 6.3
TX Power(dBm): -10.9 -27.5 3.9   N/A   N/A 8.1 7.8 7.0
 

[Bald_Eagle1]

Your connection had been up for 16 Hrs 36 Mins at 12:00 when the graphs were generated.

i.e it resynced at possibly one of the busiest/noisiest times.


Possibly a resync between Noon & 2 pm would deliver a 'slightly' higher sync speed & attainable rates (until evening noise kicks in and/or the phone is used.


Attainable rates do adjust in line with changes in SNRM (as caused when the phone is in use).

It's fairly common to see attainable rates below sync speed at certain times of day/night on connections that resync at speeds fairly close to attainable rates.

Just how much do SNRM & Attainable rates plummet when the phone is used?


I suppose it could be due to inadequate faceplate filtering or a brewing HR line issue.