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Author Topic: Tracerts please  (Read 8198 times)

tommy45

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 01:04:16 AM »

Code: [Select]
Target Name: kitz.co.uk
         IP: 185.24.98.37
  Date/Time: 30/05/2014 01:01:59

 1    0 ms    0 ms  N/A     home.gateway.home.gateway [192.168.1.254]
 2   14 ms   68 ms   14 ms  lo0-central10.pcl-ag04.plus.net [195.166.128.185]
 3   14 ms   14 ms   14 ms  link-b-central10.pcl-gw02.plus.net [212.159.2.174]
 4   14 ms   23 ms   13 ms  xe-0-2-0.pcl-cr02.plus.net [212.159.0.206]
 5   47 ms   13 ms   14 ms  ae2.pcl-cr01.plus.net [195.166.129.6]
 6   26 ms   14 ms   14 ms  xe-11-1-0.edge3.London2.Level3.net [212.187.201.209]
 7   22 ms   20 ms   20 ms  vl-3201-ve-128.ebr2.London2.Level3.net [4.69.202.177]
 8   21 ms   20 ms   21 ms  ae-44-44.ebr1.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.159.94]
 9   21 ms   20 ms   20 ms  ae-81-81.csw3.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.161.86]
10   21 ms   21 ms   21 ms  ae-3-80.edge4.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.168.135]
11   21 ms   22 ms   22 ms  NTT-level3-2x10G.Paris.Level3.net [4.68.63.118]
12   22 ms   22 ms   22 ms  ae-0.r20.parsfr01.fr.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.5.136]
13   23 ms   30 ms   22 ms  as-2.r23.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.5.8]
14   23 ms   24 ms   23 ms  ae-2.r02.londen03.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.5.41]
15   23 ms   23 ms   23 ms  ae-2.r02.londen01.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.3.1]
16   23 ms   23 ms   23 ms  ae-1.r03.londen01.uk.bb.gin.ntt.net [129.250.3.37]
17   23 ms   23 ms   23 ms  [62.73.179.150]
18   24 ms   24 ms   23 ms  [91.198.165.76]
19   24 ms   24 ms   23 ms  kitz.servers.eqx.misp.co.uk [185.24.98.37]

Ping statistics for kitz.co.uk - Default Settings
Packets: Sent = 3, Received = 3, Lost = 0 (0.0%)
Round Trip Times: Minimum = 23ms, Maximum = 24ms, Average = 23ms

Code: [Select]
is mine
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guest

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2014, 07:28:27 AM »

You'd have to prod someone at Plusnet but my guess is that L3 has a lower metric (cost) to Plusnet when compared to NTT or Cogent. That means the route from Plusnet is going to use L3 transit from Plusnet's edge routers.

However your webhost wants to use NTT for the same reason and that forces the transit to go via Paris (NTT<->L3 peering) as there's no direct route to UKWEB from L3 in London and/or the transit is too expensive (quite probable knowing L3).

I suspect that your webhost is using NTT because its significantly cheaper than using Cogent but for their main website/etc they will accept traffic on both NTT & Cogent.

That would make sense if NTT transit is significantly cheaper for UKWEB - put all the customer website traffic onto NTT transit as that's the vast majority of their traffic; their own website probably uses trivial amounts of traffic in comparison.

The "gateway" is a bit of a red herring I'm afraid as its on a totally different subnet to the website so routing may well be set up differently - and it appears that it is indeed setup differently.

It looks like your webhost rearranged their routing at 0200 on May 24 - does that correspond with when you started noticing issues?

Oh and what does the route look like if you tracert from this website to your IP address?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:34:25 AM by rizla »
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kitz

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 11:24:27 PM »

Cheers for the reply rizla.

On Thurs eve it was supposedly flagged by PN, but it would seem that the Paris route is a regular 'feature' of Level3 :(
Plusnet only use L3 and BT for transit.. plus the common peer points.
L3 seem to have weird and wonderful routing.

I also raised it with vidahost on Friday..  got a response within a few mins saying although this was outside their control but they'd see what they could do.  I later got an email to say theyve applied to direct peer with Plusnet.   Tonight Ive got an email saying that hopefully within 48-72 hours this should be completed.

It looks like my hosts already direct peer with a couple of UK ISPs - including UKO - which is why on Sky you didnt see any problems.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 12:02:01 AM by kitz »
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loonylion

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2014, 12:16:48 AM »

different route now, via clognet (as one of my friends used to call cogent)

Code: [Select]
C:\Users\loonylion>tracert kitz.co.uk

Tracing route to kitz.co.uk [185.24.98.37]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  smoothwall [10.0.0.10]
  2    27 ms    21 ms    21 ms  lo0-central10.pcl-ag08.plus.net [195.166.128.189
]
  3    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  link-a-central10.pcl-gw01.plus.net [212.159.2.18
8]
  4    21 ms    21 ms    49 ms  xe-9-1-0.pcl-cr01.plus.net [212.159.0.220]
  5    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  xe-11-1-0.edge3.London2.Level3.net [212.187.201.
209]
  6    23 ms    22 ms    21 ms  vl-3101-ve-127.ebr1.London2.Level3.net [4.69.202
.169]
  7    21 ms    21 ms    22 ms  ae-48-48.ebr1.London15.Level3.net [4.69.159.78]

  8    22 ms    24 ms    21 ms  ae-42-42.ebr1.London1.Level3.net [4.69.167.22]
  9    22 ms    22 ms    21 ms  ae-56-111.csw1.London1.Level3.net [4.69.153.114]

 10    21 ms    21 ms    21 ms  ae-115-3501.edge3.London1.Level3.net [4.69.166.1
30]
 11    23 ms    23 ms    23 ms  be3043.ccr22.lon01.atlas.cogentco.com [130.117.1
5.245]
 12    22 ms    22 ms    22 ms  te3-8.ccr01.lon10.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.75.
66]
 13    24 ms    23 ms    22 ms  te3-2.ccr01.lon15.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.57.
234]
 14    26 ms    25 ms    24 ms  te3-2.ccr01.lon14.atlas.cogentco.com [154.54.58.
49]
 15    24 ms    23 ms    24 ms  te0-6-0-3.rcr21.lhr01.atlas.cogentco.com [130.11
7.51.185]
 16    24 ms    24 ms    24 ms  149.6.8.226
 17    25 ms    25 ms    25 ms  91.198.165.76
 18    23 ms    24 ms    23 ms  kitz.servers.eqx.misp.co.uk [185.24.98.37]

Trace complete.
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kitz

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2014, 12:23:32 AM »

ooh... me too.

Earlier it was still going via Paris
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guest

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2014, 07:54:56 AM »

Cheers for the reply rizla.

On Thurs eve it was supposedly flagged by PN, but it would seem that the Paris route is a regular 'feature' of Level3 :(
Plusnet only use L3 and BT for transit.. plus the common peer points.
L3 seem to have weird and wonderful routing.

I also raised it with vidahost on Friday..  got a response within a few mins saying although this was outside their control but they'd see what they could do.  I later got an email to say theyve applied to direct peer with Plusnet.   Tonight Ive got an email saying that hopefully within 48-72 hours this should be completed.

It looks like my hosts already direct peer with a couple of UK ISPs - including UKO - which is why on Sky you didnt see any problems.

Sky have the best routing of any UK ISP - bar none - which is one of the reasons I binned Telefonica (Be) a couple of years back. I'd have to look again but they have transit rented from just about every major carrier so it wouldn't really matter to me who your host used, Sky routing would stay within the UK. Even if there wasn't direct peering there's a choice of L3, NTT, Cogent, Tata <spit>, Hurricane Electric plus a few Euro telecos at LINX/LoNAP/PacketExchange.

I wouldn't be happy with an ISP who only use L3 & BT - BTs network is frankly a shambles (see RevK's comments about 3% PL 24/7) and L3 are a law unto themselves (always have been).

Your host seems on the ball though, nice to see them taking matters into their own hands :)

http://bgp.he.net/AS5607#_graph4 <--BSkyB IPv4 routes
http://bgp.he.net/AS4589#_graph4 <--Easynet IPv4 routes
http://bgp.he.net/AS6871#_graph4 <--Plusnet IPv4 routes (basically BTnet, L3, HE - virtually every route is via L3 which I wouldn't be happy with).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 08:13:38 AM by rizla »
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les-70

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2014, 09:52:25 AM »

 I am not following this but here is one from TTB, it looks normal to me.  (From Worcestershire)

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

>tracert kitz.co.uk

Tracing route to kitz.co.uk [185.24.98.37]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     4 ms     4 ms     4 ms  host-62-24-233-143.as13285.net [62.24.233.143]
  2     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  78.151.227.0
  3     5 ms     5 ms     5 ms  host-78-151-227-21.as13285.net [78.151.227.21]
  4    11 ms    10 ms    11 ms  host-78-144-9-97.as13285.net [78.144.9.97]
  5    11 ms    11 ms    11 ms  195.66.237.228
  6    13 ms    13 ms    12 ms  91.198.165.76
  7    11 ms    11 ms    12 ms  kitz.servers.eqx.misp.co.uk [185.24.98.37]

Trace complete.

Pinging kitz.co.uk [185.24.98.37] with 32 bytes of data:

Ping statistics for 185.24.98.37:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 11ms, Maximum = 12ms, Average = 11ms

« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 11:39:45 AM by les-70 »
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burakkucat

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2014, 04:33:31 PM »

Also a TT service and from BSE, Suffolk.

Code: [Select]
[Duo2 ~]$ sudo traceroute -I kitz.co.uk
traceroute to kitz.co.uk (185.24.98.37), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
 1  AP (192.168.1.254)  0.343 ms  0.426 ms  0.552 ms
 2  host-92-24-128-1.ppp.as43234.net (92.24.128.1)  28.276 ms  30.019 ms  30.429 ms
 3  host-78-151-230-45.as13285.net (78.151.230.45)  34.648 ms  35.561 ms  36.254 ms
 4  host-78-151-230-28.as13285.net (78.151.230.28)  38.120 ms  38.828 ms  40.176 ms
 5  host-78-144-1-42.as13285.net (78.144.1.42)  41.437 ms  42.369 ms  43.109 ms
 6  xe-10-2-0-scr010.sov.as13285.net (78.144.0.216)  55.185 ms  54.888 ms  54.971 ms
 7  195.66.237.228 (195.66.237.228)  47.006 ms  33.322 ms  33.404 ms
 8  91.198.165.76 (91.198.165.76)  36.028 ms  34.733 ms  35.592 ms
 9  kitz.servers.eqx.misp.co.uk (185.24.98.37)  35.466 ms  32.864 ms  33.933 ms
[Duo2 ~]$
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guest

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2014, 05:42:59 PM »

For those not really following this then look at :

http://bgp.he.net/AS6871#_graph4

Start from the left & work to the right (hover the mouse over the bubbles to get info). Needs javascript for you guys running noscript.

Those are the public routes which Plusnet advertise - or in simple terms this is like a "how to contact us" broadcast for all of Plusnet's IPv4 addresses. I'm using the Hurricane Electric BGP looking glass facility because its got a great graph which shows routing much better than most.

You'll see that Plusnet have only one real public route to the internet - that's Level 3 (AS3356). They also have BTnet (AS2856) but that only provides routing to QWest (AS209). The last "route" you see out of Plusnet is Hurricane Electric (AS6939) which is a private peering link. They will have lots of these private peering links but ultimately they are (IMHO) way too reliant on L3.

Level 3 are one of the original backbone transit providers & their policies are still somewhere in the stone age of the internet in terms of any flexibility - and they cost more than average for very average/poor service IMHO.

The problem with this website is/was that due to Plusnet's reliance on Level 3 transit anyone visiting from Plusnet was having to go to Paris where they'd get hooked up with the website hosts preferred (cheaper) network transit. Kitz' webhost has now decided to fix that problem by doing some private peering (a free connection between networks) with Plusnet.

That indicates a damn good hosting service IMHO - its not their problem that Plusnet are run by BT but they've gone out and done the right thing for their customer. +1 for that.

I guess routing isn't something that even 0.1% of people consider when choosing an ISP :(
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 05:46:18 PM by rizla »
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kitz

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2014, 12:42:54 AM »

TBH Rizla I was also surprised the other day when I also found out that basically just how reliant Plusnet are on L3.   It didnt used to be that way.



---
Meant to add..  Sky is likely good because uko/easynets was...   which as you know they bought out.   
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 04:23:01 AM by kitz »
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guest

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2014, 07:19:36 AM »

Sky has come a very VERY long way since they bought Easynet - they have MUCH better network architects/BOFHs than BT these days (they pay a lot better).

I was frankly astounded at the complete ignorance of the guy who was arguing with RevK about 3% PL within BTnet - he styled himself "BT Chief Network Architect" (which apparently he is) or some such nonsense. The guy is completely clueless and if he's the top techie then its no wonder BTnet is so absymal.

Re Plusnet & L3 - that'll just be BT imposing the same public routing which they have. I doubt Plusnet have any say in the matter - they'll have control of private peering and not much else.
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kitz

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2014, 11:01:24 AM »

Forgot to update this earlier.

This has now been sorted and my hosts direct peer with Plusnet. 
Anyone coming in via one of Plusnets PTW gateways should reach my server in a few hops.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Tracerts please
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2014, 02:09:38 AM »

Sky are good probably because of easynet's network etho's, when I was on ukonline which was basically a rebadged easynet service   It was the best peering/transit I had ever seen on any isp, excellent routes to everywhere.

I agree plusnet over relying on level3 isnt a good thing, its worrying actually, never like to see that from a provider.

What I will say tho is that I dont frequently see level3 in traceroutes, that graph will be for non peered traffic, and plusnet do seem to have a reasonable amount of peering in place.

e.g. traffic to my german server does not touch level3, neither to holland, as well as a french server.  But outside of EU level3 is used much more, so seems mainly for international transit.  Basically where plusnet arent likely to have peering.
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