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Author Topic: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?  (Read 18773 times)

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2014, 07:20:12 PM »

People probably have no answer for you as, they do not know, it could just be the router is incorrectly displaying the us snr, your line is fine, stop worrying about it! >:(
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2014, 08:08:44 PM »

People probably have no answer for you as, they do not know, it could just be the router is incorrectly displaying the us snr, your line is fine, stop worrying about it! >:(
US SNR margin is measured by CO (DSLAM). On two routers I have the same issue.
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4candles

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2014, 09:44:20 PM »

 :wall:
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2014, 09:46:16 PM »

I don't worry about it. I'm only very curious.
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JGO

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2014, 09:51:57 PM »

I don't worry about it. I'm only very curious.

English Proverb  -   " Curiosity killed the Cat "  !  ;D
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 10:09:10 PM »

I am curious what burakkucat and kitz will say.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 10:12:52 PM »

They'll probably suggest you lower your DS SNR to 0.00002dB, and see how that affects the stability ??  ;)
If I were you, I'd be tempted to ask Kitz to explain in-depth just how DSL works. Worth a go, bud ??  :)
 
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4candles

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 10:26:22 PM »

Oooooh BS you are naughty...   ;)
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 11:49:13 PM »

I really don't know what to say.  :-\

There is a transceiver at each end of circuit. Each receiver sub-system will measure the parameters based on what the far-end transmitter indicates that it is sending. Those determined parameters are then sent back to the far end for monitoring/display, as required.

We are considering the circuit from the CPE end. We know that two separate modem/routers have been used at that location and the same anomaly has been observed when either modem/router was used. I therefore think it is valid to presume that the source of the anomaly is at the CO end. (The DSLAM/MSAN.) Can that presumption be further sub-divided? Possibly . . .

Either (1) The receive sub-system accurately measures the parameters but fails to return the correct values to the far-end until a number of seconds have elapsed.

Or (2) The receive sub-system requires a number of seconds to elapse before it measures the correct parameter values but always returns data to the far-end exactly as measured.

Perhaps what has been observed is nothing more than the cautious operation of an automatic gain control on the receive sub-system of the CO end's transceiver. When the circuit is quiescent, the receiver is set to a minimum gain and only when the circuit becomes active (when CO - CPE synchronisation is achieved) does the receive circuitry increase its gain to the standard operating level. Furthermore, that action may be specific to a particular make and model of CO equipment.

When referring to a transceiver or the receive subsystem, above, I do not mean that part of the CPE - CO link that is the end-user's data channel but the supervisory channel(s) between the devices at either end of the link.

I have not made a study of the operation of typical CO (or CPE) transceivers, so all of the above may be totally wrong. However it does give a plausible explanation for what has been observed.

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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2014, 11:57:00 PM »

Quote from: burakkucat
The receive sub-system accurately measures the parameters but fails to return the correct values to the far-end until a number of seconds have elapsed.
1. It seems I haven't explained clear enough what I have been observed. For example, my current synchronization is from 4 days but I continously see 0.0-0.4 dB SNR margin with 0 bitswaps statistics.
Immediately after I got new synchronization I saw SNR margin 6.0 dB and few seconds after about 0 dB. On the other synchronization I had bitswap after 12 hours and after it SNR margin measurement for upstream increased to 6.6 dB from about 0 dB. On many synchronizations I have been observed on first few minutes about 3-4 dB SNR margin for upstream and bitswaps. After few minutes SNR margin increased to 6.6 dB and bitswaps disappeared. There are the same tones used both when I observe ~0 dB SNR margin and when I observe 6.6 dB SNR margin.

2. I am curious also: how it is possible: abnormal Hlog and very stable line at very low downstream SNR margin 0.9 dB. Is it Hlog caused on much distance or it is possible by my home installation?

Thank you very much for your help
konrado5
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 12:10:59 AM by konrado5 »
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2014, 12:01:19 AM »

They'll probably suggest you lower your DS SNR to 0.00002dB, and see how that affects the stability ??  ;)

That's far too precise.  :P  Let's round it to nearest integer and suggest setting the DS target SNRM to zero. Seriously, why not, for a quick experiment?

I have seen a circuit where the SNRM has become negative. The ability to pass information on the data channel became zero (the circuit was unusable), CRCs, FECs, ESs were all being incremented at an alarming rate but the CO - CPE link remained in synchronism with the SNRM at -0.9 dB. Only when the SNRM reached -1 dB did the link drop and then re-train.  ::)
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 12:09:52 AM »

I have edited my above post. I was trying to set DS targer SNRM below zero and I didn't get synchronization. I had SNR margin 0.0 dB and my synchronization worked.
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2014, 12:19:48 AM »

2. I am curious also: how it is possible: abnormal Hlog and very stable line at very low downstream SNR margin 0.9 dB.

That is quite easy to answer. The slow, lazy roll or undulations that we see in your Hlog plot are indicative of impedance changes along the metallic pathway. The most likely reason for those impedance changes could be that different 'poundage' (the grade) of cable has been used in different sections. Cables with different diameter conductors, differing forms of 'lay' and 'makeup', even different types of insulation. To my eyes, the graph is abnormal in that it does not show a smooth decline as the frequencies decrease. However as there is metallic continuity, 'there' and 'back', the circuit is still capable of giving good performance. Good performance, such that the circuit is still 'well behaved' even when the DS target SNRM is pushed to an absurdly low value. (As has been said in the past, 3 dB is the absolute normal minimum target SNRM level for an xDSL circuit.)

As for the other part of your query, I really do not know how that can be explained.  :no:
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2014, 12:23:58 AM »

burakkucat; What are impedance changes outcomes? Slighty lower synchronization rate than I would have with smooth decline as the frequencied decrease?
Quote from: burakkucat
Cables with different diameter conductors, differing forms of 'lay' and 'makeup', even different types of insulation.
On the short part for example cables from the street to my home or rather very long part?
Moreover, I have edited my above post. There was serious mistake.
 
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream SNR margin fluctuations-which are normal?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2014, 12:57:26 AM »

What are impedance changes outcomes? Slighty lower synchronization rate than I would have with smooth decline as the frequencied decrease?

That is very difficult to say. Maybe a few hundred kbps. An Hlog plot is very sensitive to changes in the physical characteristics of the metallic pathway, so where shallow undulations are seen -- as in your plot -- it does not signify a performance degrading defect. That is why I have never classed your measured Hlog plot as 'bad' but only as abnormal.

For a point of reference, a bad Hlog plot is one that shows a very sudden 'valley', such as the first example I have attached below. (As the US bands are not shown, you will need to imagine them, by eye.) That defect is a performance degrading bridging tap. The second example, below, is the same circuit with the bridging tap removed.

Quote
On the short part for example cables from the street to my home or rather very long part?

The location of the site of an impedance change, relative to a known point, cannot be determined from an Hlog plot. It could be anywhere, across the entire length of the circuit. I suspect, at a minimum, at least three separate changes . . . if not more. One would need to employ time domain reflectometry (or frequency domain reflectometry) to obtain a measure of the distance to the first impedance change from a know point in the circuit. The TDR (or FDR) would then need to be repeated from that just determined location to find the next . . . and so on. It is not 'wrong' for different 'poundage' cables to be used in a circuit . . . it is just not quite as obvious as so it seems to be, in your case.

I have carefully re-read your edited post but I still can not think of anything that would explain the situation. Very sorry but I just do not know.  :no:
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