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Author Topic: International HF Amateur Radio Bands  (Read 8406 times)

burakkucat

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International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« on: December 24, 2013, 12:28:40 AM »

When first made available, ADSL used frequencies up to 1.1 MHz.

Subsequent enhancements gave ADSL2 and ADSL2+, the latter using frequencies up to 2.2 MHz.

More recent developments have brought VDSL2, initially using frequencies up to 8 MHz and currently using frequencies up to 17 MHz.

Profile 30, using frequencies up to 30 MHz, has not (as of yet) been implemented here in the UK.

Unfortunately for xDSL technology, those ranges of frequencies have have authorised, licensed, uses. Apart from the BBC's Droitwich transmitter (located in the outskirts of the village Wychbold) which broadcasts on 198 kHz and affects virtually every UK xDSL circuit (that spike centred at tones 45 - 46 of our QLN graphs), the other (licensed) sources which occasionally affect xDSL circuits are the high frequency amateur radio bands.

So for reference, here follows a table of the international HF amateur radio bands --
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JGO

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2013, 07:38:06 AM »

Very useful to have an up to date list, also there are liable to be domestic allocations about 5 MHz i.e different from country to country.

At least ADSL/VDSL is not saddled with TV's almost pathological fear of filters :-  " They cause Group Delay variation !!!! "  I remeber a TV masthead pre-amp covering all entertainment bands flat from 40-1000 MHz-.  As Southern ATC's radar beamed about 25MW ERP at it every 7 sec, blacking it out for 1/2 sec, filters became essential !

Happy Christmas !
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2014, 07:25:39 PM »

Not to sure if my QLN graph is showing signs of Radio Interference on VDSL2, I am sure the second one in blue at 1.650Mhz is causeing problems as the tones are missing from 1.650Mhz to 1.750Mhz.

Any clues to which station is affecting the tones.

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burakkucat

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2014, 08:04:04 PM »

. . . I am sure the second one in blue at 1.650Mhz is causeing problems as the tones are missing from 1.650Mhz to 1.750Mhz.

Haven't you misinterpreted your graph?  :-\

The X-axis is individual tones, each one of which is 4.3125 kHz wide.

So to calculate the frequency of any particular spike, use the formula f = ((tone number x 4.3125) + 2.15625) kHz.

So that broad hump which you have flagged with the blue pin is between tones 1650 & 1750 (approximately).

Hence fmin = ((1650 x 4.3125) + 2.15625) kHz = 7117.8 kHz

and fmax = ((1750 x 4.3125) + 2.15625) kHz = 7549 kHz.

The origin of that RFI?  :shrug2:
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2014, 08:49:30 PM »

. . . I am sure the second one in blue at 1.650Mhz is causeing problems as the tones are missing from 1.650Mhz to 1.750Mhz.

Haven't you misinterpreted your graph?  :-\

Yes I have  :-[ but thought the X Axis was 0 to 4000KHz  (0 to 4 Mhz) and was not aware you needed an extra calculation formula to arrive at the destination.

Thats excellent BC now I can fully understand the QLN graph now the next will be BIT swaping I must have that misinterpreted to  :-\

I do Whish BaldEagle & you had made a 300 page manual on how to Interpret the HG612stats graphs  :D

EDIT checked the multiband scanner and getting a radio station on 7280 Khz AM (7.280 Mhz) it driffs in strong to 8 bars signal strength then driffs off to 0 and comes back again over 3 minutes
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:24:57 PM by NewtronStar »
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burakkucat

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2014, 10:21:14 PM »

I do Whish BaldEagle & you had made a 300 page manual on how to Interpret the HG612stats graphs  :D

Our Analytical Eagle has essentially developed such a guide from first principles, whilst instructing Plusnet and using (what was) his defective VDSL2 service as an example!  ;)

Quote
EDIT checked the multiband scanner and getting a radio station on 7280 Khz AM (7.280 Mhz) it driffs in strong to 8 bars signal strength then driffs off to 0 and comes back again over 3 minutes

It won't be any use for such a higher frequency as 7.280 MHz but here is the link to the site that shows all LF & MF broadcast transmitters in the UK. That frequency band is used here and here, for example, on the North American continent but I don't think those signals are troubling you.  :no:

An example of QLN graph analysis.

I am currently using a Huawei HG622 in ADSL2 mode. Hence tones 0 to 255 can be examined. Here is the raw data --

Code: [Select]
   0 -150.0000
   1 -150.0000
   2 -150.0000
   3 -150.0000
   4 -150.0000
   5 -150.0000
   6 -119.5000
   7 -116.5000
   8 -116.5000
   9 -116.0000
   10 -117.0000
   11 -117.0000
   12 -117.5000
   13 -117.5000
   14 -118.5000
   15 -117.0000
   16 -117.5000
   17 -118.0000
   18 -117.5000
   19 -118.5000
   20 -118.5000
   21 -118.0000
   22 -118.5000
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   24 -119.5000
   25 -119.0000
   26 -120.0000
   27 -120.5000
   28 -120.0000
   29 -119.0000
   30 -118.0000
   31 -116.5000
   32 -150.5000
   33 -139.0000
   34 -141.0000
   35 -140.5000
   36 -140.5000
   37 -137.5000
   38 -135.5000
   39 -136.0000
   40 -135.5000
   41 -133.5000
   42 -131.0000
   43 -131.0000
   44 -130.0000
   45 -129.5000
   46 -116.5000
   47 -130.0000
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   114 -133.0000
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   116 -133.0000
   117 -132.5000
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   120 -133.5000
   121 -132.5000
   122 -132.0000
   123 -133.0000
   124 -133.5000
   125 -127.5000
   126 -132.5000
   127 -129.5000
   128 -132.0000
   129 -133.0000
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   131 -134.5000
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   133 -135.0000
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   136 -134.0000
   137 -135.0000
   138 -135.0000
   139 -135.0000
   140 -131.0000
   141 -135.0000
   142 -135.0000
   143 -136.5000
   144 -131.5000
   145 -135.5000
   146 -131.5000
   147 -134.0000
   148 -121.5000
   149 -131.5000
   150 -132.5000
   151 -133.0000
   152 -129.5000
   153 -131.5000
   154 -130.5000
   155 -129.5000
   156 -125.0000
   157 -123.5000
   158 -126.0000
   159 -123.0000
   160 -116.0000
   161 -109.5000
   162 -121.5000
   163 -126.0000
   164 -128.0000
   165 -128.5000
   166 -129.5000
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   168 -128.0000
   169 -122.0000
   170 -128.5000
   171 -125.0000
   172 -129.5000
   173 -126.0000
   174 -127.0000
   175 -116.5000
   176 -123.0000
   177 -123.0000
   178 -126.5000
   179 -126.5000
   180 -127.0000
   181 -129.5000
   182 -129.0000
   183 -129.5000
   184 -128.5000
   185 -128.5000
   186 -127.5000
   187 -126.0000
   188 -115.0000
   189 -126.5000
   190 -128.0000
   191 -129.5000
   192 -128.0000
   193 -131.0000
   194 -126.0000
   195 -126.0000
   196 -127.0000
   197 -127.0000
   198 -123.5000
   199 -125.0000
   200 -123.0000
   201 -125.5000
   202 -126.0000
   203 -123.5000
   204 -122.5000
   205 -121.5000
   206 -123.5000
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   210 -116.0000
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   212 -119.0000
   213 -121.5000
   214 -122.0000
   215 -122.5000
   216 -121.5000
   217 -124.0000
   218 -122.5000
   219 -118.0000
   220 -123.5000
   221 -118.5000
   222 -122.0000
   223 -121.5000
   224 -121.5000
   225 -122.0000
   226 -123.5000
   227 -124.5000
   228 -120.5000
   229 -123.0000
   230 -122.5000
   231 -122.0000
   232 -120.5000
   233 -120.0000
   234 -123.5000
   235 -123.0000
   236 -125.5000
   237 -122.0000
   238 -118.0000
   239 -124.0000
   240 -124.0000
   241 -124.0000
   242 -122.5000
   243 -125.5000
   244 -117.0000
   245 -125.0000
   246 -124.0000
   247 -124.5000
   248 -125.5000
   249 -125.5000
   250 -125.0000
   251 -121.5000
   252 -114.5000
   253 -114.0000
   254 -121.5000
   255 -125.0000

and the graph of that data is attached below.

There is a nasty looking peak between tone 45 - 47, so lets take a closer look. Examining the above raw data, we can see that peak is virtually tone 45 - 46. Performing the calculation --

fmax = ((46 x 4.3125) + 2.15625) kHz = 200 kHz
fmin = ((45 x 4.3125) + 2.15625) kHz = 196 kHz

The midpoint of those two frequencies is thus 198 kHz . . . and I don't need any look-up table to tell me that it is BBC Radio 4, broadcasting on long wave, from the Droitwich transmitting station;D
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2014, 11:40:05 PM »

I can see it now as clear as a whistle with the QLN graph and then using the calculation formula.
I have to give BC the golden thumbs up it feels great to still be learning new stuff when your slightly over that middle aged bracket  :-X
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 12:52:37 AM »

Right BC you also have a peak at tone 160 and with the formula = 692.15 KHZ and using the link that would show up as Radio 5 Live as the source of RFI am I on the right track ?
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burakkucat

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 01:35:41 AM »

Right BC you also have a peak at tone 160 and with the formula = 692.15 KHZ and using the link that would show up as Radio 5 Live as the source of RFI am I on the right track ?

You most certainly are!  ;D

A quick look at the raw data shows the peak to be approximately midway between tones 160 & 161.

Plugging tone "160.5" into the formula gives a frequency of ~694 kHz.

Using the UK Medium Wave Transmitters web page and selecting the frequency of 693 kHz clearly shows the culprit -- the BBC Radio 5 Live transmitter at Postwick, Norfolk. I say clearly, because anyone who has checked my profile will know that The Cattery is located at Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk.

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JGO

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 08:04:14 AM »

www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra365.htm
 covers the total frequency allocations 9kHz -105GHz.   
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burakkucat

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 04:26:25 PM »

Many thanks for that link, JGO. I now have it book-marked.  :)

So for the bothersome "hump" of interference, at approximately 7.1 - 7.5 MHz, that NS has observed the above list shows --

Quote
7 100-7 300 kHz                 BBC broadcasting services operate within the bands 7 105-7 295 kHz,
BROADCASTING                the channel spacing is 5 kHz and channel bandwidth is 10 kHz.
                                           All services are transmitted via Rampisham, Skelton and Woofferton.

7 300-7 350 kHz                 BBC broadcasting services operate on 7 320 kHz and 7 325 kHz in
BROADCASTING                this band via Rampisham, Skelton and Woofferton.
S5.134, S5.135, S5.143

7 350-8 100 kHz                 Government use.
FIXED                                NATS data links with Sumburgh
Land Mobile
S5.144
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2014, 10:18:01 PM »

Many thanks for that link, JGO. I now have it book-marked.  :)

So for the bothersome "hump" of interference, at approximately 7.1 - 7.5 MHz, that NS has observed the above list shows --

Quote
7 100-7 300 kHz                 BBC broadcasting services operate within the bands 7 105-7 295 kHz,
BROADCASTING                the channel spacing is 5 kHz and channel bandwidth is 10 kHz.
                                           All services are transmitted via Rampisham, Skelton and Woofferton.

7 300-7 350 kHz                 BBC broadcasting services operate on 7 320 kHz and 7 325 kHz in
BROADCASTING                this band via Rampisham, Skelton and Woofferton.
S5.134, S5.135, S5.143

7 350-8 100 kHz                 Government use.
FIXED                                NATS data links with Sumburgh
Land Mobile
S5.144

Many thanks for looking into this spike at 7280KHZ and yes that Station transmission was UK english and the Voice came through strong using wide band FM. but that station is silent to-night  :-\
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JGO

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2014, 10:41:44 AM »

Neutron Star  -  Just noticed   Wideband FM on 7280 kHz ???????

Wideband FM at that frequency is totalty illegal, 75kHz deviation doesn't fit in 5kHz AM channels.  So either a pirate OR maybe something very wrong with a FM radio  radiating at IF (well more or less.  IF is normally 10,700 kHz so 7280 is in the ball park.)
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NewtronStar

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2014, 07:32:44 PM »

Neutron Star  -  Just noticed   Wideband FM on 7280 kHz ???????

Wideband FM at that frequency is totalty illegal, 75kHz deviation doesn't fit in 5kHz AM channels.  So either a pirate OR maybe something very wrong with a FM radio  radiating at IF (well more or less.  IF is normally 10,700 kHz so 7280 is in the ball park.)

There are several Radio Stations that are being picked up from tones 1675 to 1760 and all are being broadcast outside the UK and I have enclosed a snapshot of the tones in question.

On one of those stations I was not able to get a lock on hear the Voice went through AM and then NAM it was when Wide FM was selected I could clearly hear the audible voice from that station so you can make your own conclusions why this was the case on this particular Radio Station.

Edit I have uploaded the same Bitloading Graph but this time the sun has set and the radio propagation is in full swing.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:13:14 PM by NewtronStar »
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JGO

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Re: International HF Amateur Radio Bands
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2014, 09:45:07 PM »

NAM  ?  Never heard of it - should it be NFM  or NBFM ?

If you have genuine FM with the standard 75 kHz deviation then it occupies on average 225 kHz all by itself.  No need for anything else to punch a hole in the tones !   If that is the case something weird going on, but you are on the spot.
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