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Author Topic: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit  (Read 11466 times)

setecio

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If someone knows that they live near or beyond the adsl line length limit for receiving adsl from their exchange, can they order a 'special' package from BT ?

A special package meaning, can they get BT to activate the broadband and send an engineer out to tweak the system to it's best performance in the hope that they might in fact be able to receive and use a 256kbps signal.

Do BT offer this as a package, so that the costs are known before ordering, and if it fails they aren't tied into a 12 month contract. If it cost 150 total or so to do it, they might. If it cost 50 per hour then they probably wouldn't.


As a side issue, if it fails, then they will have to go with satellite broadband.
Does anyone here know anything about the satellite ISPs

eg http://www.teles-skydsl.co.uk/index.php?c=tariff&s=overview&cs=skydsl1000

looks good until you read http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showthread.php?p=156689

then http://www.getbroadbandanywhere.com/ looks good

but with all these http://www.ispreview.co.uk/review/censura.php?cmd=browse&category=5

how do I know which are good, and which end up in a 24 month contract with no service received.

 :( ???
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 03:08:38 PM by setecio »
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Azzaka

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2008, 10:57:11 AM »

We do offer a 250 service for people who are a distance from the exchange. Depending how far you are we might even be abelt o provide you with a 512kb connection.

As for a 12month contract we don't offer them. Our contracts are monthly. The reason for this is, if you are not happy with the service then we don't want you to stay. There is no reason to keep an unhappy customer.

L.Goile
Zen Internet
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setecio

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2008, 04:47:34 PM »

Thanks, so it would cost 47 + 1month @17.99 to try.

Is there any point in considering a BT engineer visit if I plug router into the master 'test' socket, and would you advise a Netgear DG834G for it's weak signal pickup properties (I have seen it said here on the forums) ... or what is the best weak signal router ?

It appears to be a line length of between 7 and 8 km, taking the road route which should be a max line distance. Is this too far or can a slow 256kbps be squeezed out of it ?

This page seems to suggest that gettings a 256kbps connection on a 7 to 8km line is entirely possible
http://www.farina1.com/bookmark/000004/2005/02/27/00020260.HTM


Thanks.
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kitz

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2008, 07:46:03 PM »

Hi

What results do you get from the adsl checker?
Ive seen it say on some lines that adsl will be provided after being checked by the engineer.
For very long lines an engineer will also usually try the installation of an adsl NTE5 master socket as these generally give the best results.

There are a couple of ISPs that will offer the 250 service for long lines - Zen being one of them and also iirc IDNet.  Its not something the "big boys" such as AOL, Tiscali etc tend to offer.

If your line is one of those that needs an engineers attempt, then BTw do tend to do all they can to get you with some sort of working connection.  I'm not 100% certain if this still applies, but I'm sure Ive seen in the past mentioned by Plusnet rep that if in these cases BT cant get you a working connection then BT will refund any connection charges.

Quite often the problem with long lines is that until adsl is actually provisioned on it, then you dont have any line stats to be able to say exactly what that particular line is capable of.

As regards to the router choice - at this particular time there is some debate over routers, and although the Netgear has proved to stabilise many long lines, the new one is a broadcom chipset and the jury is still out.  Because you are going to be trying to eke the very best out of a particular line then in this instance you may be better going for a speedtouch router.
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setecio

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 11:16:00 PM »

Thanks.

Could a domestic user go for a BT business account in the hope of better service?
or Would the zen250 be better than anything BT has to offer ?

The results from adsl checker are : ONLY BT is in the exchange, no LLU.

BT Exchange Information 

 ADSL enabled : November 4, 2004
 dsl Max enabled:  March 30, 2006
 SDSL enabled : Not Enabled
 21CN due : 2008
Distance:- Direct:    4.35 km
    (appx)* By Road: 7.72 km
 


BT Line Speed Estimation  Other Broadband Technology & LLU Providers 

 Fixed ADSL:  512 kbps (0.5 Mb) 
 DSL Max :   0 kbps (0 Mb) 


Important: The above figures are an estimate based on information obtained from the BTw database.
DSLmax speeds are best guess based on the surrounding area and cannot take into effect individual line conditions which may effect the result such as the type of equipment you use or other issues which may affect the Signal to Noise Ratio.

 RAG Test Results 

 Fixed:  1Mbps and 2Mbps not possible
 radsl:  Line has over 75dB loss, ADSL unlikely, but will be tested by an engineer on-site

 MAX:  ADSL Max is available
 SDSL:  Exchange Not Enabled
 TPON:  TPON/Fibre not recorded
 Check:  No compatability issues
 

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kitz

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2008, 01:27:26 AM »

>> Could a domestic user go for a BT business account in the hope of better service? or Would the zen250 be better than anything BT has to offer ?

tbh I dont think that anything much that the BT business account could offer you personally, more than the Zen one could. 
The main advantages of the BT business account are:
1) better contention ratio at the exchange.
2) Higher upload speeds.

Neither of these will be of that much importance to you because of the limitations of the physical line.


>> Line has over 75dB loss, ADSL unlikely, but will be tested by an engineer on-site

Thats the one I mentioned... therefore it looks like an engineer would probably do the installation check in your case.  They should attempt all they can for you including the adsl filtered faceplate.
afaik they usually try 512k first, and then the 256k service.

As regards the order, and if BT at a later date confirm that adsl is not possible on the line, then you may well be able to get the install fee refunded.
I wonder if azzaka (one of the Zen reps) could kindly confirm that this is still the case.
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setecio

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Re: BT package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2008, 02:39:04 PM »

Thanks. Will 21CN improve the ability to receive adsl beyond 6km ?

As regards the order, and if BT at a later date confirm that adsl is not possible on the line, then you may well be able to get the install fee refunded.
I wonder if azzaka (one of the Zen reps) could kindly confirm that this is still the case.


Yes please, if you can let me know the Zen stance, I can pass on the info to them.
Specifically if they try the Zen250 and can't get broadband in the end,
Will the 47 activation fee be refundable ?
and will Zen ask a BT engineer to visit, and if so will there be any extra fee, and will it be refundable if no adsl is achieved.
and if they get 250 can you then try for 512 ?

Thanks.


I found some interesting info via google ' long line adsl ' search. The BT2700 business router was mentioned as good, the speedtouch 585 appeared alot, inc http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/printthread.php?Cat=&Board=dslrouter&main=3148471&type=thread referring to a 8.6km line at the bottom,
this interesting info FAQ http://www.newnet.co.uk/broadband/adslfaq.php ,
and this blog was interesting, including getting the line re-provisioned to a closer exchange. (Read from the bottom upwards)
http://longlineadsl.blogspot.com/

and this gem of a doc http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2006/12/20130045/0

Also it would be interesting to find the results of this test a few years ago, or a more recent equivalent
http://www.uk-bug.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=267&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 05:50:56 PM by setecio »
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soms

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2008, 05:27:25 PM »

Quote
Thanks. Will 21CN improve the ability to receive adsl beyond 6km ?

I don't believe so.

21CN is BT's upgrade to the core network and exchange equipment, replacing existing telephony and data systems and converging them into one IP based network. As a small part of this, BT wholesale is also taking the oppertunity to upgrade the ADSL equipment to ADSL 2+ which is similar to ADSL Max but supporting higher data rates.
21CN is not a project to upgrade the access network with FTTC or FTTP. Openreach does however run an improvement plan which is helping to improve the performance of the copper access network whilst looking into future development of fibre systems.

My understanding is like with ADSL max at present, ADSL 2+ is a rate adaptive product and the highest speeds are only available to those with high SNRs, the primary factor in this being line length.

It will be one of those very steep graphs where if you get 8Mbps now you will probably get 24Mbps whereas if you have 2Mbps or less now you will probably see no difference.

This is due to the limitations and properties of the access network. As it is only a tiny amount of the output signal reaches the customers CPE (something silly like one-millionth. On that basis it isn't really something that can be improved by the switch to ADSL 2+.

That is my basic take on it, but I welcome any corrections or further clarifications.
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setecio

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2008, 11:10:15 PM »

OK thanks.

There's something I don't understand about the BT or Zen decision.

The exchange is a BT only exchange and yet the advice here seems to be to go with zen250, the reason being they can offer a slower fixed speed which will give more chance of a stable connection.

How does this work ... do Zen rent that from BT ? Since it is a BT only exchange, can BT not just provide it themselves.

I'm thinking surely it is better to go with BT since they own all the equipment. If I understood why BT don't/won't offer the 250, but Zen will, then I'd think otherwise. Is it simply that BT just don't offer it as a package to consumers even though they are quite able to supply it to Zen, and do so if Zen order it from them at that exchange for the customer ?
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soms

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2008, 11:14:40 PM »

Yes this seems to the case. Its much like you can still get a fixed speed ADSL package of say 512K, 1Meg or 2Meg at "BT only" exchanges.

I believe it is as you say, the ISP is renting the service from BT wholesale, who provide the service on existing equipment and using the BT network back to the ISP on their behalf.

I agree it seems silly that BT do not appear to provide such a retail service themselves.

I have had first hand experience of this muddled arrangement in 2006.
Our Exchange is BT only and we used to use an ISP called Fast24 (before it went bust) that used Tiscali as its wholesale provider who in turn used BT as their wholesale provider for our service.

The nuisance was that the ISP went bust, BTw would not cease the line as it was tagged for tiscali and only the company renting the line can order a cease, Tiscali would not cease the line as they said we weren't their customer, even though the ISP was finished and unreachable. After four weeks without service the broadband had been ceased.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 11:21:49 PM by soms »
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Astral

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2008, 11:19:47 PM »

All the gear is owned by BT wholesale unless it is an LLU exchange. Unfortunately it does not follow that having BT retail as your ISP will ensure good service.

I used to have a BT business (allegedly) 20:1 contention service and a Plusnet ordinary retail service which both terminated in the same double socket and presumably ran in parallel to the BT exchange. The Plusnet service was consistently faster than the BT service. My conclusion; BT might not be the best choice of ISP.

Fortunately my employer paid (through the nose) for the BT service.
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soms

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2008, 11:30:14 PM »

Quote
I used to have a BT business (allegedly) 20:1 contention service and a Plusnet ordinary retail service which both terminated in the same double socket and presumably ran in parallel to the BT exchange. The Plusnet service was consistently faster than the BT service. My conclusion; BT might not be the best choice of ISP.

BT Business broadband is expensive. It also has an ever growing range of additional business orientated services with it. Hence it is not really suitable for the everyday residential user.

It is not completely like that  your two lines on the one line jack will not run in parallel.
The access network has been maintained and modified so much that the routing of pairs, even to the same premises can vary a lot. I have seen cases of a small building in a town where the lines came in from two separate DPs. Depending on the area this could mean seperate street routing to cabs and all over the place.

Line speeds aside, in an LLU exchange one would think speed differences are down the ISPs network performance.

In most (BT only) exchanges it all goes down the BT network before it reaches the ISPs network. In these cases, especially with ADSL Max, it doesn't used fixed contention ratios as such. I think Kitz mentioned something about bandwidth sharing being the thing now instead. I certainly always get very good speeds (average of around 1800-1900kbps/2000k profile) so am lucky not to be sharing to much bandwidth.

Also whilst indeed choosing BT Retail as your ISP will not ensure good service, one would hope it reduces the possible number of parties involved and so keeps things simpler and gets problems sorted faster.

BT wholesale and Openreach have regulatory obligations including to treat all communications providers equally, be that BT Retail, Zen, Plusnet. So on that basis regardless of whether you have a problem with BT Broadband or Zen, BTw should waste an equal amount of time on sorting it out.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 11:48:55 PM by soms »
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setecio

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2008, 09:46:14 AM »

That makes alot more sense now.  I presume that I can fit an NTE5 faceplate for them, since i just connects in to the test socket.

Also the fact that BT support will be a call to India and probably 2 or 3 hours (or more) in the case of trying to get a borderline line length working.

The Zen UK support is much more attractive.

However, I think the other important factor now, is how much is at risk, in the situation that no adsl is obtainable.

I hope azzaka (one of the Zen reps) will be able to tell me all fees are refundable if no service is possible .... here's hoping.
 .... and how much the max fees will be should a BT engineer have to visit to achieve success (and is that refundable on non success)
I'm thinking it should be 0 since if I put an NTE5 faceplate on for them (or unplug al the phones and use the BT test socket on the master socket), and use as speedtouch 585 and also try a Netgear DG834G, then they can't really argue the fault lies on the house side of the master socket.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:57:35 AM by setecio »
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soms

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2008, 11:01:10 AM »

Yes you can fit a ADSL faceplate yourself. Indeed you can pretty well do anything you like on the test socket side.

I would agree with you that if your expecting to be in contact with ISP support a lot given the problem you have that I would probably also be looking for a reliable ISP preferably with UK support.

As for fees this might come down to whether BTw charges Zen anything for attempting to provide service. If Zen are charged then they can pass those one-off costs to the customer.
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setecio

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Re: BT or other ISP package for long line length near or beyond adsl limit
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2008, 12:17:46 PM »

As for fees this might come down to whether BTw charges Zen anything for attempting to provide service. If Zen are charged then they can pass those one-off costs to the customer.

Yea this is that grey area. I'm hopin BT won't bill the customer for anything done on the outside of the master socket (I think they only bill for inside problems). Therefore if I do all the testing plugged into the existing test socket of the master socket, trying several microfilters to avoid a faulty one, and using a speedtouch 585 and a Netgear DG834G, the customer shouldn't be billed for anything extra unless the engineer can easily show me why. That's all assuming that it doesn't just work straight away, which i what we're hoping for.  :)
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