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Author Topic: Star wiring  (Read 5643 times)

jjpearce05

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Star wiring
« on: October 21, 2013, 03:57:27 PM »

Hi,

I thought star wiring was bad for vdsl - it appears in New Zealand it is the recommended way - see this cabling document

http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/1e0c5bbd-047f-4fcb-bc7a-0c13f8484271.cmr

Any thoughts ?

(My wiring isn't star, just interested in the different approaches !)

Jason
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JGO

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 04:50:46 PM »

Hi,

I thought star wiring was bad for vdsl - it appears in New Zealand it is the recommended way - see this cabling document

http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/1e0c5bbd-047f-4fcb-bc7a-0c13f8484271.cmr

Any thoughts ?




It is !
 ( and  for TV lead ins too ! )

I wonder,  without wading through all the small print, is a filtered faceplate implied, so only the 'phones "see"  the star  ?

JGO
 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 05:21:48 PM by JGO »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 08:32:45 PM »

Same as JGO. I really haven't got the time, (or wherewithal), to trawl through that 'Doc'. I wish I had. But, I can say with all certainty, removal of star-wiring improves DSL connection. I see it most days.  :)

PS .... I'm hoping our resident scientist (B*Cat) will manage to pick the bones out of it ??  :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 11:11:45 PM »

Meow?  I cast a sleepy-eye over that document and thought "Huh?  Whatever.  Time for a nap."

Unless there is something significant hidden away, it does seem to be suggesting against all good practice. There could be active component splitters for the television aerial distribution system and, as JGO has speculated, if it is just the telephony wiring that is in a star configuration then all should be well.  :-\
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guest

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 10:18:13 PM »

Star wiring (on all circuits, mains and phone) is more the norm than the exception around the world.

From what I remember/was told we use mains "rings" because it was cheaper to build/rebuild houses that way after WW2 (think prefabs). Mains ring wiring is (IMHO) a lot more dangerous than mains star wiring as it isn't as failsafe in terms of where current will flow in the event of a faulty item. ELCBs have got rid of a lot of that risk but most people don't have them fitted.

Star is actually better than ring/series in terms of EMI as there will be phase differences between the noise induced in the branches of the star wiring from radiated interference and conducted interference will usually be more localised.

You just need a filter at the entry point for ADSL/VDSL really, but IMHO star wiring after that works better. YMMV.

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Black Sheep

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2013, 02:42:12 PM »

When I was doing my apprenticeship, we were told 'ring mains' were introduced during the war, so that if one 'leg' was severed, the other 'leg' would still provide the juice. With radial circuits, that wouldn't be the case. I've not ever come across a house/business that is mains 'star-wired'.

However, back to the question in hand, and whatever the science may tell us, the reality is 'star-wiring' on DSL circuits causes problems. I see it on a regular basis. :)
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JGO

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 04:33:08 PM »

Star- and ring wiring both place notches in the frequency response somewhere and so may clobber VDSL ( possibly ADSL2 if the path differences are long enough).  Multiple Internet outputs seems to require a bi-directional amplifier and resistive splitter which sounds an interesting design problem !   Simpler to let the router do the splitting to Ethernet or WiFi ?

A much used application of a ring filter was in waveguide, to stop a  radar receiver and transmitter seeing each other, yet both see the aerial. 
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JGO

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 09:43:28 AM »

Further thoughts, (bit off topic ?)

How do power line data connections fare with ring and possibly spurs in the same system ? Still they don't worry about crosstalk so just wind the power up ?!

This is a short explanation for people who don't know what the heck we were talking about !

If  AC power splits and later recombines, more or less out of phase, the result can be loss of power maybe 30 dB in a narrow band .
For ADSL1/ADSL2+/VDSL the minimum cable distances to give this delay are of the order of 75m/37.5m/7.5m.

This sort of path difference is possible in a house if the wiring is a ring main where there are two paths, clockwise and anti-clockwise OR

with spurs where power can go direct or take the side turning only to find it is a dead end and come back delayed.

The result is attenuation of the signal at the top end of the bandwidth (IN Hz!). If the signal there is attenuated anyway due  to a long cable run from exchange/cabinet, the effect won't be serious, but with a good signal it can have a marked effect.

A filtered faceplate at the master socket can be configured to block off the rest of the wiring to broadband, so eliminating the problem. This then needs dedicated cables from the router to computer(s). This is a "fair bit of work but then forget about it" solution.

WiFi is an alternative, but it can also suffer from reflected signals arriving with a delay, and in this case the corresponding distance is about 3.2 cm. There are many objects in a house capable of reflecting  WiFi which may be moved  this far so this is a "easy and works for the moment" solution.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 01:33:54 PM by JGO »
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JGO

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 09:07:36 AM »

Everyone agrees with me ?!!!!!
 
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burakkucat

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Re: Star wiring
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 05:35:01 PM »

Er . . . Your post (dated / timed October 30, 2013, 09:43:28) makes perfect sense, to me.  :)

Sorry for not purring earlier.

:friends:
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