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[guest]

These days what is "in use at the exchange" is almost entirely irrelevant regarding your speed/attenuation/etc. I would go so far as to say that it is irrelevant for <8Mbps ADSL connections. For ADSL2+ it may be a factor in some instances (usually "power users" wishing to tweak to the max) but even then its not really important as 99% of them have no idea what they are doing anyway.

Even if you do know the chipset in use on the DSLAM/MSAN then it's not that useful anyway as you will not be able to determine the firmware in use.

Frankly if you wanted info from the modem then Netgear is about the worst choice you could have made as something which doesn't have enough memory to even display bitloading/tone is even less likely to provide remote info.

[graevine1]

Hi Rizla, Well Im not exactly certain because the 834 G Ver3 certainly enables you with the Ti AR7 chipset to determine what is at the exchange. AND it appears to be faster on line than this 834N with its Broadcom chipset. I do however want access to asome more facts such as FEC errors and "line up counts" etc
I hope this can be found. I see no reason why not. at any rate Im finding out a lot more today by further interrogation of the broadcom foirmware etc.
Have a great year.

[Azzaka]

FEC errors are not errors. FEC errors by definition is the number of corrected pakets by the DSlam when Interleaving is enabled. HEC errors are errors and need to be monitored. The N series do have issues but for a different reason. The new series router uses the Broadcom chipset for the modem code and then utilises the Atheros chipset for the wireless side of the router.

This was supposed to enable the new wireless standard of 108mb/s however it has been known to cause intermittenty connection as the code form both chipsets react with eachother in uncertain ways.

This is why the SpeedTouch routers are still better for wireless however the new Belkin series uses both the Atheros and the Broadcom chipsets but they do it so the code in the middle buffers the WAN and the LAN sides.

[graevine1]

Thanks Azzaka, Im sorry but to use the word error was wrong of me, you are of course correct. You have hilighted a concern of myself re the internal chipsets, but i believe you have spotted where I am coming from and where I am leading to. I believe with a number of twisted pair connection problems that no doubt will increase then it is imperative that one can by whatever means be in a position to interrogate the route by means of the router/modem. I do not believe that the twisted copper network is being maintained to the standard expected or to the standard that it may have been a few years ago. I have not had the oportunity as yet to examine the Belkin but may do soon. Thanks for your interest. Any further observations would be greatfully received.

[mr_chris]

it is imperative that one can by whatever means be in a position to interrogate the route by means of the router/modem.

What information would you be looking for here? When you say interrogate the route, what exactly do you mean by this?

[graevine1]

I was attempting not to be too technical, with my choice of words. I am firmly of the opinion that 98% of the problems that users of broadband over the twisted pair are affected by, or are down to "the route" ie from the exchange via the 'E' side cable to the CAB and the 'D' side cable to the dwelling/premises, so the more information that we can extract using the modem/router the better and easier it is to establish the problem and therefore point the finger at the maintainer/supplier of the route pair (or the one wire). More will come to light by next week I hope. However, there does appear to be surfacing a possibility of incompatability of some chip set/software combinations, this is starting to leak out. This will only affect some few % of instalations, and may not be able to be rectified by firmware flashes in all cases. There may be cases of errors/service difficulty introduced between exchanges and router/modem, and/or wi/fi processor/modem processors or the buffers/translators between them.  I hope no one would dissagree that the time has come whereby the user should be able to interrogate a router with ease and be able to produce a print of performance for records or maintenance. After all you dont buy a new car and find it stops working for even a minute a day, or buy a gallon of petrol and go away happy with being told that the six pints is really the one gallon you have just believed you have paid for !!!!!!. 

[mr_chris]

Hiya,

If I read you correctly, what you're wanting from a modem is something akin to the kit that comms engineers use to determine line length, or where there is a break, etc. Unfortunately you're being very vague about what you would require from a modem. You keep mentioning that you would like to see "more information", but you do not say exactly what information you would like to see. Without actually expanding upon this, I can see this thread going round in circles and everyone simply getting frustrated, with no decent outcome.

Modem chipsets, as I'm sure you know, can tell you information about ATM cell fault counts, etc... and the calculated "attenuation" and "SNR margin" (I quote these because they are of course a sort of average, as the SNR and attenuation will change by frequency).

A modem chipset cannot perform enhanced diagnostics in the same degree as the expensive kit used by BT engineers for line testing can. They are consumer grade, for one, and they simply do not have the capability of the testing built into them. This would vastly inflate the price of a router, and statistically, the number of lines which DO work well with cheap modems is much higher than the number of lines which are faulty.

More will come to light by next week.... please expand upon this, I'm interested to know what you mean. Oh, and be as technical as you like, I'll only ask what you mean if I don't understand, I'm not proud

[graevine1]

All to be said at the moment is that there is a lot of information to be obtained from the imbedded commands and routines in most of the routers, that can be used as a guide as to aid with difficulties that users of broadband have in many cases, there are a lot who just accept whatever they receive as a working circuit, and a lot who are being "oversold" broadband which they are not using to a level that they believe they are having to pay for. So lets see what can be retrieved from these routers.
I fully accept that results ie attnuation & SNR etc are rather wide in their tolerance as disclosed. However, there are thoise of us who can use the information retrieved to point pretty accuratly as to where a problem may exist. I myself used to diagnose all types of faults over the twisted pair, coax, and waveguide, but I had £10's of thousands of kit for the purpose. BUT you have to be able to use it, and, correctly! even then you have an experience factor built in to many of the resulting figures.

Im making my batch of marinaded Mango chutney at the moment so must go for a stir and taste. I should be able to produce some more next week, as I said but this is a side project to the main route. Till i have a little more time.
Have a great day.

[kitz]

>> I am firmly of the opinion that 98% of the problems that users of broadband over the twisted pair are affected by, or are down to "the route" ie from the exchange via the 'E' side cable to the CAB and the 'D' side cable to the dwelling/premises,

But the "twisted pair" is either the D side or the E side anyhow.  I'm really not sure what you are trying to get at here.

>> All to be said at the moment is that there is a lot of information to be obtained from the imbedded commands and routines in most of the routers, that can be used as a guide as to aid with difficulties that users of broadband have in many cases, there are a lot who just accept whatever they receive as a working circuit,

Again Im not sure what you are trying to get at here.  If you have high attenuation as reported by your router there sure as hell isnt much you or BT can do about it.

As already explained to you on numerous occasions.. the vast amount of poor speeds are either down to

a) User incorrect set up or malware/unsecured networks
b) Contention at the local exchange but bear in mind that we pay for a contended product to make adsl affordable
c) Contention at the ISP - central pipes cost a huge amount of money and to make adsl affordable then users have to share the available bandwith.  We dont pay for a 1:1 connection - otherwise the cost would be nearing £1000 per month.
d)  Maxdsl will always try and give the user the best speed possible according to the line conditions.  If you have a long line - then theres not much that anyone can do about this.  adsl frequencies deteriorate over distance.  Longer lines are actually more costly than shorter lines.

>> However, there are thoise of us who can use the information retrieved to point pretty accuratly as to where a problem may exist.

There are some of us that can perhaps do so..  but you cant expect Jo Average to be able to.. the aim of sites like this is to help users understand it.
There are many of us on forums just like this who give their time freely without pay to try and help users diagnose where their problems lie. Users like us offer some of the best free advice in the country.


>> I myself used to diagnose all types of faults over the twisted pair, coax, and waveguide, but I had £10's of thousands of kit for the purpose.

Exactly - therefore you cant expect the same from a £25 router.
A router can help tell ATM line faults but no way can it tell your exact routing - do we really need to know that?

I'm sorry but I really am not sure what information you are wanting.

If you are simply wanting router line stats - This site was actually one of the first to supply this information to the UK general public for a wide range of routers.  In fact this site has often been copied by others (with my permission / acknowledgement).

[graevine1]

Kitz, to say in a few words. I have no compaint about what you are attempting in some cases, and it must be noted achieving in a lot of cases, to resolve users difficulties. You and your friends on this site are a credit to users. The majority of ISP's do attempt, some more than others to assist in sorting out service problems. However I must take issue with your comment " If you have high attenuation as reported by your router there sure as hell isnt much you or BT can do about it" Well there certainly is, as appart from the cable suppliers BT in one way or another own the twisted copper pairs. If BT want to issue an invoice for a service then they should ensure that the network is maintained, I will not be drawn any further on this point at present, other than to say a number of lines are extremly "ropy" and should have been "uplifted" long ago. If it is known for instance that its own Engineers have been putting in A55's for "uplift" to be carried out, because a cable is known to be "flat" then heads should and must "roll" if it is not completed in reasonable time. The majority of the public are not in a position to understand what is the problem, they simply want a constant useable service if they are expected to pay. For you and other members of this site have to beg and pray for, for instance Interleaving to be switched "on" or "Off" is simply a joke, when it is clearly not being done at request, especially when the customer is informed it will be done. Its such a waste of your time in the continual requests for instance. To not be open with what "Traffic management" is in force on a customers line, without the customer being made aware in real time is I believe an unfair practice. I could go on and on.

I was simply after what information could be obtained that was "hidden" inside the router that maybe of use in diagnosis. Especially that which was not readily available.
Im getting there and will be soon.
Does the above help or does the "mystery" which I dont understand !! deepen into something else that I am not aware of..

[graevine1]

There appears to be a little confusion as to what chipset is in which Netgear router
Thanks to this site and the assistance given.
I believe it would be of value to put onto your router page the following
Im not saying its going to work in all cases but it has in all that I have looked into.

First telnet the router in question, that is on the site

then:-
at the command line against the #

(you type) cat proc/cpuinfo (then you press enter)


BusyBox v0.61.pre (2007.04.16-10:12+0000) Built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.

# cat proc/cpuinfo
processor               : 0
cpu model               : MIPS 4KEc V4.8
BogoMIPS                : 211.35
wait instruction        : no
microsecond timers      : yes
extra interrupt vector  : yes
hardware watchpoint     : yes
VCED exceptions         : not available
VCEI exceptions         : not available
#
#

This is for the DG834G Version 3 and the cpu is clearly identified
similarily with the DG834N which has the broadcom chipset you receive


BusyBox v0.61.pre (2007.04.16-10:12+0000) Built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.

# cat proc/cpuinfo
system type : 96358GW-16
processor               : 0
cpu model               : BCM6358 V1.0
BogoMIPS                : 299.00
wait instruction        : no
microsecond timers      : yes
tlb_entries : 32
extra interrupt vector  : no
hardware watchpoint     : no
VCED exceptions         : not available
VCEI exceptions         : not available
#
#

I hope this helps against which chipset is in which router.
I have chosen the netgear routers as they are generally known to work better on lines with a greater line attenuation etc.

[kitz]

>> I believe it would be of value to put onto your router page the following

That info is already up on the page that I linked you to several days ago which I said you may find useful - under the section busybox shell commands

By combining the cat and proc command we can get certain info from the router.

# cat proc/cpuinfo
system type : RTA770W
processor : 0
cpu model : BCM6345 V0.0
BogoMIPS : 92.97
wait instruction : no
microsecond timers : yes
tlb_entries : 32
extra interrupt vector : no
hardware watchpoint : no
VCED exceptions : not available
VCEI exceptions : not available

I've asked people to use that command before now to find out what chipset is in which router...  and thanks to the kind co-operation of several zen users + zen reps with various different routers, its how we established a list of which chips were in which Netgear routers.  "Narsty" then also updated the wiki AR7 chipset list with the results of this info.
Its also been previously mentioned in several threads on this forum when trying to find out what chipset is in the netgear routers which has been topical of late in respect of the AR7 issues.