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Author Topic: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs  (Read 5149 times)

tickmike

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Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« on: September 26, 2013, 10:43:12 PM »

They were talking on our local radio station about it as well today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24227096
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 09:34:08 AM »

From our CEO, Liv Garfield ..........................


The Public Accounts Committee report into Rural Broadband
Lets understand the real facts


You will no doubt have seen in the media that BT, Openreach and the Department for Culture Media and Sport (DCMS) were subjected to aggressive and unjustified criticism last week from the parliamentary Public Accounts Committee (PAC), and its chair, Margaret Hodge. This followed the publication of the PAC’s report into the Broadband Deployment UK (BDUK) procurement process into rural parts of the UK.
The Public Accounts Committee is a parliamentary committee which operates independently of government. It's not a formal government body and is mostly non-Government members. The PAC acts as an independent reviewer of Government  policy, it is therefore in its interest to be critical of government programmes, and it has a reputation for doing just that. 
The PAC heard evidence about the BDUK process from a range of stakeholders over the past few months, including a number of BT’s rival operators and community group. In response,  Sean Williams, BT’s strategy director gave a full and open explanation of our procurement approach.
The PAC panel are not industry experts, and I believe this came across clearly in the final report, which was confused, heavily weighted against BT, and failed to demonstrate even a basic understanding of the economic realities of deploying fibre to rural areas. It also failed to take into account a point-by-point correction we had submitted to the Committee before it was published.
It's a key point to note about this PAC report, that Matt Howett, Principal Telecom Regulation analyst at Ovum, commented that it, “lacks understanding of the basics.” His view, shared by other experts reading the report, was that “the more sensationalist claims that will most likely make the headlines… are mostly unjustified or overlook some of the realities.”
The main criticisms of the report focused on the impression that by winning all of the BDUK bids to date, we have ‘squeezed out’ others in the market, especially smaller players, and we are being less than up-front about our costs in order to build a monopoly on fibre in rural areas.
I want to be very clear about this: we have won because we offer the best solution, at the best price, and because we, unlike others, can be trusted to deliver what we have promised.
Our successful £2.5bn commercial investment in fibre has meant that, unlike others who chose not to invest, we already have experience, thousands of highly skilled engineers, a robust cost effective supplier network and a massive fibre footprint across the country.
We were therefore able to provide the extra coverage that BDUK councils needed as a ‘bolt on’ to our existing network. Is it any surprise, then, that we can make councils’ money go further, and bring fibre to more people, than others who would have to build a whole new network?
Andy Kerr, Deputy General Secretary of the CWU, hit back at the PAC on exactly this point:
"The fact is that BT was the only company prepared to make the investment required to deliver fast broadband services to rural areas.

Despite the public money it is receiving, BT's decision to participate in this vital national project represents a significant investment at BT's own risk, which is not expected to see a return for a number of years.

Other providers withdrew from the bidding process because they could not see a business case for investment.

You have to wonder what the Public Accounts Committee actually want of BT and Openreach - because the stark truth is that without the commitment to invest, the long-overdue efforts to bring high speed broadband to the rural communities and businesses crying out for such services would be in tatters.

Rather than bashing the one company that is investing its own money into projects that are vital for the general good of the country and creating thousands of skilled jobs in the process, we should be asking one very simple question: Why have BT's competitors decided not to risk making investments of their own - relying on BT's investment to take their own services to rural areas?"
Well said Andy !
I also wholeheartedly reject the argument about BT rebuilding its monopoly, we are a truly open network,  we offer all of our fibre products on an entirely equivalent basis to all providers, and more than 70 of them are using our fibre products. Also remember we compete heavily with Virgin, who have around 12M premises passed with their fibre products, so this is definitely a competitive market.
I am proud of what we have achieved with our commercial programme, and I’m proud that the risk we took to invest in fibre means that we are the company who can be trusted to provide the best deal for rural Britain.
We should be in no doubt that the UK government wholeheartedly shares this belief – Ed Vaizey, the Minister in charge of Broadband roll-out, strongly defended our record on the BBC’s Today programme, and across other broadcasters last week, saying :
"BT is providing great value for money. They are putting up more than a third of the cost of rural broadband. We are going to deliver 90 per cent super-fast broadband. That was always our target.
BT is delivering under our scheme to up to 10,000 homes now; it will deliver to millions of people over the next two years with the best value-for-money, government-sponsored broadband scheme you will pretty much find anywhere in the world"
I couldn’t agree more.

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burakkucat

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 07:33:47 PM »

Oh dear! So Olive senses that someone has rattled a big stick across her cage bars.  :D

Quote
Liv Garfield, Chief Executive , Before joining BT in 2003, Liv worked for Accenture, the management consultancy company. She then joined BT as General Manager running a desk based sales team, before moving into the service world, managing call centres and leading provision and repair teams. Following that, she worked as BT Group Director of Strategy and Regulatory Affairs, where she oversaw the company's fibre broadband strategy and other key areas.

Liv's task with Openreach includes responsibility for the delivery of one of the fastest and most ambitious deployments of superfast fibre broadband in the world. Openreach has already made superfast connections available to more than 13 million premises. She will now oversee delivery of fibre to around two thirds of UK homes and businesses by the end of Spring 2014 - and to an even greater proportion of premises as public funding becomes available to get to areas where the economic case is more challenging.

[From http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/aboutus/ourorganisation/businessinfo.do ]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 07:38:00 PM by burakkucat »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 07:37:45 PM »

Ha ha ....... though she does make good points ..... especially the 'Lack of understanding" by the PAC.
The PAC do great work and have rattled many other cages that perhaps needed rattling, but IMO, she's flogging a dead 'un here.
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renluop

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 06:07:06 PM »

I suppose if it get all too much she can go home and stroke her p kick the cat. Surely one that looks like
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2013, 10:15:52 AM »

They were talking on our local radio station about it as well today.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24227096

I saw that on TV last week, it made me curious.    I've actually always had a soft spot for BT.  Despite their odd failings they (and their ancestors) have done not a bad job over the past century or so, taking phone lines to the most unfathomable locations, and more recently facilitating the internet access that allows me to sit at this computer browsing this forum.

But the news article led me to check my own prospects of 'superfast', which I have been eagerly looking forwards to as I'm stuck on a 56dB  line that struggles to get 4Mbps.  Most folks in the village make do with half that.    So how long will I have to wait? 

Well, according to...

http://www.superfast-openreach.co.uk/where-and-when/

'NC'.  ... I needn't hold my breath.  I'm 'Not currently in Rollout Plans.  Not even 'Under Evaluation'. I've simply been written off, it seems.

When I expand the local map, 21 out of 25 local exchanges in a 10 mile(-ish) radius are the same, all 'NC', all apparently written of by BT & the politicians .  Now I do live in a village, but it's not exactly remote, we're in the middle of the Home Counties, my own local exchange itself is less than 2 miles from one that's already 'Accepting Orders'.    :'(

I'm inclined to say the Commons Committee and Margaret Hodge may have had a point.   Don't know if it's the politicians or BT to blame.  Arguably, BT took the tax payers money (including mine) and are failing to provide, so they're not exactly blameless  :(

edit, I've changed my dyslexic 65 to 56.   Even for a follower of kitz, 4mbps would be going some at 65 dB:)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 08:11:36 PM by sevenlayermuddle »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 11:05:42 AM »

7LM ..... they "took" the tax-payers money, only for the regions that they are bidding, and investing in. They are not failing to provide, they are the only ones who are providing !!

For all concerened, I will make the point again, we are a BUSINESS first and foremost, we don't have a USO to provide DSL to each and every premises. We are, however, investing heavily into the BDUK programme with our own cash, that won't show a return for some considerable time.

Read the bump above again, and you'll see that all the other bidders are all mouth and no trousers. They don't want to put their own cash up front without a quick return.

Please go back to liking BT, 7LM, no bugger else is going to help your village ...... however long it might take ?  :P ;D ;D
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 11:33:37 AM »

Sorry if I've (understandably  :P) struck a nerve BS.

But the point is, from the point of view of voting tax payers, there is probably just a simple awareness  that 90% of people will get fast broadband.   There might easily be an assumption that the remaining 10% might be thoses for whom installation is impractical, living on islands, mountain tops or other wilderenesses.   I never thought the 10% would include what is essentially London commuter land, some of Europe's most densely populated areas.

BT would have had the choice of declining the contracts on the basis they couldn't fulfill reasonable expectations with available funding.   For that, I'd not have faulted them.  But to take the contract, and make statements about coverage that in my view might give the wrong impression about what is being done,   that is where I'll criticise...
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 12:26:47 PM »

Ha ha ...... I know it comes across as 'striking a nerve', but it's really just giving a balanced view on a debate. It's very easy to (and maybe not the best analogy here), to all adopt a 'Village mentality' and arm ourselves with pitchforks to drive the ogre away.

I don't know your particular situation whatsoever, I'm just trying to put over the FACTS of BDUK from BT's perspective, rather than the usual codswallop that one can be subjected to.

We're never going to please everybody, but we do please the very high percentages. Also, as a BUSINESS, you're not going to get much better, as pointed out in the 'bidding' process in a post above. Or, why not get a B4RN project up and running ??

This isn't intended to sound as harsh as it appears in text and is not aimed directly at you 7LM, but, according to one of those daytime TV shows, fast broadband is in the top 10 of house-buyers 'want list'. You choose where you live and what the pro's and con's of living there bring. I wouldn't want to live in Manchester just to get 330Meg speeds, the traffic is chaotic and it would do my head in. I would, however, love to be able to afford to live in a small/medium village and would have to take the speed-drop as part of the deal. BT can not be held to task over that, and are doing their bit (a bloody big bit at that), in trying to give faster speeds to these kind of dwellings.

I'll say it once more, we are never going to please everybody. Nobody can. :)
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waltergmw

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 12:35:12 PM »

@ BS,  That is unless you are a microscopic group such as B4RN providing true symmetric 1 Gbps over vast swathes of the Lancashire fells.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 12:45:50 PM »

LOL. Fair point Walter, but realistically speaking ........ what is B4RN's customer base in comparison to BTOR's ?? Bespoke, non-profit making groups, who aren't scrutinised by regulators, shareholders ...... and now the PAC, who also don't have timescales, directives and penalty clauses to work to, can probably make everyone happy.

Why are B4RN not 'Taking over the world', so to speak ?? Not a criticism, as I agree that what they have done is good, but it's tiny on a UK scale. :)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 02:21:17 PM »

From our CEO, Liv Garfield ..........................

From reply #1, my emboldening of text..
The Public Accounts Committee report into Rural Broadband
Lets understand the real facts

.... much deleted.....

"BT is providing great value for money. They are putting up more than a third of the cost of rural broadband. We are going to deliver 90 per cent super-fast broadband. That was always our target.
BT is delivering under our scheme to up to 10,000 homes now; it will deliver to millions of people over the next two years with the best value-for-money, government-sponsored broadband scheme you will pretty much find anywhere in the world"


So, I wonder if anybody can explain to me what the '90 per cent' refers to.  I had assumed, from the context, they were saying that 90% of rural dwellers could expect super fast broadband.  But it could also be a case of carefully chosen words with one of two other interpretations..

1)  They could be saying that 90% of the UK, or perhaps county by county,  ( but including city dwellers) will get super fast.
or
2) They could be saying that, of those exchanges that are being upgraded to fibre, 90% of the new subscribers will get super fast.

Either of these explanations would fall far short of the assumptions I think I could be forgiven for drawing from the political headline often stated by media, and unchallenged by politicians (until Margaret Hodge spoke out)  that rural communities, in general, well get fast broadband....
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Black Sheep

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2013, 03:26:37 PM »

90% = 90% of the country.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Rural broadband rollout: Taxpayers being 'ripped off', say MPs
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2013, 06:26:54 PM »

90% = 90% of the country.

In that case, whilst they may be doing a sterling job for those who live in cities, and even small medium sized towns, they allowed to smply 'pass' on many of the smaller villages.   Which is a pity, as I had believed it was what the government's  subsidy was meant to provide

This is not just BT's fault of course.   Looking at my own county map, it seems clear to me they (the local authority) have regarded the '90%', rather than 'rural broadband'  as the goal, hence the most cost effective winners are the small and medium towns that house most of the population in concentrated areas, despite the fact they were already well served with adsl2.

Reading Margaret Hodge's criticism, and ignoring the Beeb's sensationalist presentation, I think that was largely her point... that if ministers had negotiated differently, they could have persuaded the tenders to commit to rural dwellers too by seeking goal nearer to 100%.   

I suspect that probably was the original best intent of the politicians even if it has all now gone a bit pear-shaped.  They've basically bought the wrong thing, regardless of whether or not BT may have mis sold it to them.   :(
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