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Author Topic: Interleaving - BToR DLM  (Read 21701 times)

ColinS

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 12:26:32 AM »

Colin ok the 3 DLM profiles are seperate to the DSLAM profiles.
DLM is not run on a DSLAM, it just controls DSLAMS.
As you said regardless of DLM profile everyone starts off the same way, the reason is these profiles don't affect how you start, they just affect how much instability is required for you to move to a lower profile.
So eg. on speed it might require 1000 CRC errors a minute, standard might be 600 a minute and stable might be 300 a minute.
Yes, thank you.  This is paraphrasing how it was described in BT's original DLM patents for ADSL - EP 2 169 980 A1 & EP 2 342 902 B1 (original source 7LM) - and was what I was citing when I referred to
Quote
how DLM might monitor and subsequently react to line conditions.

These are referred to as Stability Policies, as discussed at file 1 below, and is, as I said, IMO the source of these 3 profiles.
The actual metrics suggested and described therein are at file 2 below, and an overview of the original DLM algorithm at file 3 below.

What appears to be different in the VDSL algorithm is that these have to be mapped down to the selection amongst & application of (one of) the available set of line profiles in the DSLAM, each of which in themselves embodies (to use the terminology of the original patent) a set of parameters whose selection, as Kitz has referred to, adopt a distinctly different (so-called banded) approach to that contemplated (and used) by the original ADSL DLM(s).

What you have partially described are what might trigger a profile change, not what profile (and so parameters) are selected, or why, or how these parameters are related to a putative set of stability policies.

It is likely that there are multiple profiles with the same banding, but with different parameters, e.g. INP and delay, which could be selected between on the basis of these stability policies.  However, it would be nice to see some evidence that e.g. someone on a so-called Speed (stability) profile encountering line issues is simply moved to a lower speed banded profile, but one that does not use INP (because of the delay introduced).

It could be argued that when issues on my line were caused by excessive forced resyncs, it behaved in that way by simply applying a lower banded profile i.e. as if I was on a Speed profile; but when subsequently issues arose which were the result of excessive error-rates instead, it behaved otherwise, in selecting a profile in the same band, but with INP and delay instead.

So, to be >:D advocate again, what is differentiating the approach here - the nature of the trigger, or the 'applied' stability policy (which must have been selected, or defaulted, by the ISP, and remained unchanged)?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:36:03 AM by ColinS »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 07:21:25 AM »

Kitz there is no 3db snrm profile used by BT on FTTC.  None of the profiles as far as I am aware directly control SNRM at all.  Instead they use banding to cap the speed, this of course increases the SNRM but its done differently to older DLM which increases the target SNRM instead.  BT do seem to prefer to apply interleaving prior to using banding tho, I dont think I have seen a single instance of a line that has been banded whilst still on fast path, its possible a line can recover from interleaving to fast path and still be banded (my line was) but I have never seen BT apply banding prior to enabling interleaving.

I have seen zen (and I think also plusnet) reps state the 3 DLM profiles isp's can choose from have all the same dslam profiles available to them, the only difference between the 3 DLM profiles is when a line is considered stable or not, they have different thresholds, thats it.  So its entirely a possible a line can be on the stable profile but with a 80/20 sync on fast path and a line can be on the speed profile banded down to 20/10 with a high interleaving depth.

Colin your images seem to confirm what I just said, but where are they from?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:27:53 AM by Chrysalis »
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ColinS

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 10:06:18 AM »

I dont think I have seen a single instance of a line that has been banded whilst still on fast path, its possible a line can recover from interleaving to fast path and still be banded (my line was) but I have never seen BT apply banding prior to enabling interleaving.
Then you need to pay a little closer attention to what I said above.  Not long after I moved to FTTC, work was done on my D-side (but not necessarily on my line).  As a consequence I then spent the next ~56 days being moved down and then back up a series of banded profiles before finally returning to 80/20, and during the whole time I remained on fastpath. I have the evidence for that (thanks to BE), where is yours?

Quote
I have seen zen (and I think also plusnet) reps state the 3 DLM profiles isp's can choose from have all the same dslam profiles available to them, the only difference between the 3 DLM profiles is when a line is considered stable or not, they have different thresholds, thats it.
I can't speak about Zen, as I don't know, but PN are still learning about FTTC and know no more about it than anyone else.  One of their staff volunteered to try to find out more about it in response to a question I posed over there about 'how it works'; he said he 'thought that was his job' (to find out).  Sadly, he couldn't or didn't, and he certainly didn't mention at any time anything about these 3 stability policies.  If they are indeed still in use, and as you suggest the only difference between them are the trigger thresholds, perhaps you could explain to me the 'benefit' to a gamer of being on a 'Speed' profile if INP and Interleaving get set resulting, e.g. as on Jamie's line, in an additional delay of 13ms?

Quote
So its entirely a possible a line can be on the stable profile but with a 80/20 sync on fast path and a line can be on the speed profile banded down to 20/10 with a high interleaving depth.
and it's also entirely possible that it doesn't quite work the way it used to with ADSL.

Quote
Colin your images seem to confirm what I just said, but where are they from?
They are from the original ADSL DLM patents filed by BT, and identified by 7LM quite some time ago I believe, on this forum.

I started this discussion by acknowledging that this is what people believe (an urban myth), but explained that I remain as yet unconvinced. If something gets repeated often enough, people tend to start to believe it without question. There are plenty examples of that.  Unfortunately, you have not provided any real evidence that supports this theory.  Most of what you have referred to, and 'confirms' what you said, actually reflects BT's original patents for ADSL DLM. 

Whereas I can provide actual data from my own experience (thanks again to BE) that, to the contrary, it appears that there is more evidence that VDSL DLM has possibly 2 different 'stability policies' (which may be built-in) - one where the dominant line characteristic observed by DLM is instability (excess forced resyncs), and the other where it is performance (excess error-rates). So, for the moment, I'm going to continue to suggest that 'your Emperor has no clothes on'.  :)
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ryant704

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2013, 12:17:38 PM »

I have to disagree the DLM doesn't work with SNRM values in mind, my experience has been the DLM will always increase/decrease the speed depending on the current SNR Margins. Though this is more indirectly but it's the only way it can control the SNRM (to a degree).

I'm currently banded at 20Mbps on Fastpath due to a blue transformer exploding the other week. Before this my line would sync around 25Mbps with a INP of 3 and a Interleaving depth of 450. When I was first banded it was on Interleaving but I was still hitting my normal 60/70 (far better than the start of the service, use to have up to 2000/3000) FEC per second as I suffer from REIN. Been on FastPath now with FEC enabled and hitting about 10/20 with the same in CRC.

I think it's key we try and leave the ADSL DLM Information out of this discussion, any Information posted should be about the VDSL2 OR DLM as they're entirely separate from BT Wholesales. I will contact BT and ask if the DLM for BT swaps around the 3 profiles and ask for my current profile status as I'm assuming it will be on 'stable'.

Also the majority of you seem to be on Huawei cabs but I'm on ECI, I'm assuming this makes no difference to the DLM but I wouldn't be surprised if it has little changes for each vendor.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 01:55:17 PM by ryant704 »
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ColinS

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2013, 01:01:31 PM »

Thank you Ryan, that's an important contribution to the discussion, and one which fairly convincingly provides further evidence that, however it works, it no longer works quite the same way it used to do.

I would agree with you, that you would hope, assuming a centralised DLM, that its behaviour would be fully independent of the FTTC cabinet DSLAM-supplier, but I think (or at least seem to recall), as you suggested it might, that some users on ECI cabinets have reported slightly different behaviour, but I am happy to be told otherwise.  It would be very helpful if any such users could report their own experiences here too like you.
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kitz

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2013, 01:45:26 PM »

Quote
I concur with B*Cat. :) A discussion started...

Thank you b*cat & Colin for trying. :) 
Since then I've found something that would indicate that whilst Huawei DSLAMs have line profile templates, the SP can very easily delete/over-write, amend or adjust any of these profiles.   The doc I found was partly obscurred but it clearly indicated how it was easy to change these profiles so its likely a moot point as I bet BT have been tweaking to their own anyhow.

I have a page somewhere showing the old Tiscali profiles that they used on Huawei MSANs

Quote
What appears to be different in the VDSL algorithm is that these have to be mapped down to the selection amongst & application of (one of) the available set of line profiles in the DSLAM, each of which in themselves embodies (to use the terminology of the original patent) a set of parameters whose selection, as Kitz has referred to, adopt a distinctly different (so-called banded) approach to that contemplated (and used) by the original ADSL DLM(s).

Agreed.  This is what I was trying to suggest when I compared it to the BE options only with more complicated interleaved parameters weaved on top based on the original selection.
 
Thanks to the patent links it would seem that this is correct. Its the ISP (rather than the EU) which is choosing what I shall call the base DLM profile.  Then depending upon the base DLM profile, differing parameters set the line profile.  In other words some of the base profiles are more tollerant than others and require more Err Seconds or re-trains per hour to trigger a higher line profile.



Quote
It is likely that there are multiple profiles with the same banding, but with different parameters, e.g. INP and delay, which could be selected between on the basis of these stability policies.

There could be and certainly this would be the logical assumption. 
However - Ive not read the patent in minute detail... but it points to more towards tollerance for the parameters... and what is classed as 'unstable' by the DLM system.

It appears to work almost backwards to how youd expect a straight forward DLM to work - more on this later!
 

If this is the case, (& because the ISP cant reset) then switching to a different base profile could in theory reduce a line profile faster than others.
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kitz

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2013, 01:49:33 PM »

Quote
Kitz there is no 3db snrm profile used by BT on FTTC.  None of the profiles as far as I am aware directly control SNRM at all.

Thats what I said, all the evidence seems to be a 6dB target SNRm regardless and I'd not seen any evidence to the contrary
"they dont seem to use SNRm for stability - instead opting for interleaving, leaving SNRm at 6dB"

If they had been then I would expect at least some Zen users on speed profile to see a 3dB target SNRm, but we haven't. We may have seen it on BTw's 21CN, but there's a complete lack of this profile on BToR's line management.  We do see however seem to see more line banding on fttc.

Quote
I have to disagree the DLM doesn't work with SNRM values in mind, my experience has been the DLM will always increase/decrease the speed depending on the current SNR Margins. Though this is more indirectly but it's the only way it can control the SNRM (to a degree).

Thank you ryan,  the BToR DLM doesnt seem to set target SNRm, but like you say in effect controls this through banding. 
iirc the BTw system only used banding when it had gone through all the SNRm and interleave options.   
The BToR DLM appears to make more use of banding rather than target SNRm.  By banding a line it is in effect increasing the available SNRm.
The old Tiscali DLM used to use banding too, but as well as a DLM change it could also be easily manually configured by the ISP.

Quote
I will contact and ask if the DLM for BT swaps around the 3 profiles and ask for my current profile status as I'm assuming it will be on 'stable'.
   

Thank you.

Quote
Also the majority of you seem to be on Huawei cabs but I'm on ECI, I'm assuming this makes no difference to the DLM but I wouldn't be surprised if it has little changes for each vendor.

No difference Im also on an ECI..  Its why I wasnt too concerned about not getting info on the default Huawei profiles. Its extremely likely BT have over-written any Huawei and ECI defaults and set their own that will match for both cabs. 
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2013, 02:05:59 PM »

Colin whats this asking for proof business? isnt a competition.  I said I didnt recall seeing an instance of someone been banded without interleaving, so you are one such case, but you are still the only case I know off, so it doesnt really change anything that the DLM system seems to heavily lean towards interleaving as a first line mechanism for line stability.  I have read dozens of forums, 1000s of posts from many many people discussing DLM, FTTC etc. and out of all these publicised reportings you are the single one who had a line banded prior to interleaving, so yes it can happen as you have proven, but I wouldnt say it trashes the idea that DLM heavily favours interleaving.

Also regarding the DLM profiles this is in regards to FTTC not ADSL, I dont read up ADSL things and assume its FTTC I have little interest in ADSL.  The 3 profiles is very much so in reference to FTTC. 

Quote
perhaps you could explain to me the 'benefit' to a gamer of being on a 'Speed' profile if INP and Interleaving get set resulting, e.g. as on Jamie's line, in an additional delay of 13ms?

Thats a question to BT not myself, gamers dont even benefit from speed, they thrive on low latency and jitter.  In fact I believe openreach just call it a speed profile whilst its the isp's who have decided to label it for gamers.  I didnt design the DLM system I am just commenting on how I believe it to work based on openreach documentation, customer feedback and public comments made by isp's.

If people on this site are going to continue to just disregard what I am providing then I will simply stop taking part, no skin of my back.

Just because your line behaved against the trend and the zen guy you spoke to didnt mention profiles you then jump to a conclusion I am talking trash.  You seem to swing from one fence to another at a moments notice or maybe you just enjoy disagreeing with me.

These profiles are not dynamic, they determine the way DLM behaves, it doesnt switch between these profiles at will.  If someone is on a stable profile it is because a line order has been put in to put them on a stable profile, and they will permanently be on a stable profile until a new order goes in to change it.  (source senior tech at a isp cant disclose).
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kitz

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 02:11:59 PM »

Ive just seen something that would imply that on both adsl + fttc the ISP has options to order different base DLM profiles too.  It also appears that Zen may not be provisioning fttc for speed see this post

Quote
BT Wholesale still use the profile names of ADSL - so when we order 'Standard' and BT Wholesale say it's standard what they pass on to Openreach is an order for 'Speed'.

With our GEA FTTC orders we order 'Standard' - so that will be the middle (balanced) profile, rather than 'Speed'..

So therefore the 3 base profiles are:-

BTw "Standard" = BToR "Speed"
BTw "Stable" = BToR "Standard"
BTw "Superstable" = BToR "Stable"

and this now confirms Zen arent using fttc speed profile like they previously thought they were.... simply because of the confusion in the differing base profile names

Quote
Yes, as GEA FTTC is a direct order with Openreach we order the DLM profile using Openreach's names.

They should be changeable in-contract without resetting the term (unlike a shift from standard to elevated traffic profiles, and vice-versa). We've not tried yet though - as the understanding was that we were already using 'Speed' - but we've found that isn't the case.

So are all ISPs using the "Standard" base DLM profile for FTTC?   Have other ISP's been caught out with the difference in base DLM profile names thinking that Standard was Speed?

What difference would this make in reality to the EU?
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ryant704

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2013, 02:23:10 PM »

The speed profile is often referred as the the "Gaming" profile by Sky at least, aka enables FastPath.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2013, 02:39:33 PM »

The speed profile is often referred as the the "Gaming" profile by Sky at least, aka enables FastPath.

all the profiles enable fast path at start.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2013, 02:47:19 PM »

Ive just seen something that would imply that on both adsl + fttc the ISP has options to order different base DLM profiles too.  It also appears that Zen may not be provisioning fttc for speed see this post

Quote
BT Wholesale still use the profile names of ADSL - so when we order 'Standard' and BT Wholesale say it's standard what they pass on to Openreach is an order for 'Speed'.

With our GEA FTTC orders we order 'Standard' - so that will be the middle (balanced) profile, rather than 'Speed'..

So therefore the 3 base profiles are:-

BTw "Standard" = BToR "Speed"
BTw "Stable" = BToR "Standard"
BTw "Superstable" = BToR "Stable"

and this now confirms Zen arent using fttc speed profile like they previously thought they were.... simply because of the confusion in the differing base profile names

Quote
Yes, as GEA FTTC is a direct order with Openreach we order the DLM profile using Openreach's names.

They should be changeable in-contract without resetting the term (unlike a shift from standard to elevated traffic profiles, and vice-versa). We've not tried yet though - as the understanding was that we were already using 'Speed' - but we've found that isn't the case.

So are all ISPs using the "Standard" base DLM profile for FTTC?   Have other ISP's been caught out with the difference in base DLM profile names thinking that Standard was Speed?

What difference would this make in reality to the EU?


kitz I got no idea which profiles are been ordered by which isp's I am assuming its the standard profile. But thats just a guess.

his post here implies zen customers are ending up on the openreach speed profile.

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/zen/t/4252183-re-ip-profile-reset-on-fttc.html

I would think most EU's dont care or notice, they just want a internet service that works.  But since this DLM works from the top down, all lines start of as fast as possible, and then DLM only kicks in if there is problems.  Are users going to notice the difference between the speed profile and stable profile on a unstable line? probably not, either they will be more concerned about the line itself (if stability is really bad) or they will be moaning to the isp about lost speed (if they a geek who wants every ounce of speed) or most likely I think they wont notice if DLM works, it slows the line down and it becomes stable.  Remembering that a FTTC line has to be extremely bad for it to get as slow as an adsl line.    I think I read on a openreach page that the middle profile is the default if one is not specified on order.
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kitz

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2013, 02:49:47 PM »

Ive not read the patent in minute detail... but it points to more towards tolerance for the parameters... and what is classed as 'unstable' by the DLM system.
../..
It appears to work almost backwards to how youd expect a straight forward DLM to work - more on this later!

OK we know without doubt there are the 3 DLM base profiles that the ISP can use.  We know that the DLM is 'supposed' to set your line profile based on those 3 different profiles.

Aside from the different DLM profile names between BTw and BToR it would appear that these would directly equate to the 3 profiles in the patent.

The patent works differently to other more straight forward DLMs,  what the patent doesnt disclose is the profiles,  but I think its fair to ascertain that both BToR and BTw will be using the same line management system as these wont/cant be housed in the DSLAM/fttc cab.  The DSLAM will simply be sending this information to the line management system.  The diagram below was for dslmax, but it will work in a similar way for fttc



What is different between BTw and BToR is the actions taken on the line when instability occurs.  BTw system will tweak SNRm.  BToR passes over this more  in favour of interleaving, error correction and banding.

What we have to get our heads around is that it doesnt behave like you'd expect it to..  and those 3 DLM profiles will affect how much the line changes.  I dont think that the DLM will automatically switch between those 3 base profiles..  thats up to the ISP to decide.  However until someone actually has been on the different base profiles we wont know for sure.

It doesnt go:-

Code: [Select]
If (ErrSecs == n ) {

  If (profile == A ) {Interleave = 'x';}
  elseif (profile ==B) {Interleave = 'y';}
  elseif (profile ==C) {Interleave = 'z';}
;}

Instead its more like


Code: [Select]
Calculate_tolerance;{

  If (ErrSecs == n && profile ==A ) {calculate quality based on table A;}
  elseIf (ErrSecs == n && profile ==B ) {calculate quality based on table B;}
  elseIf (ErrSecs == n && profile ==C ) {calculate quality based on table C;}

      if (quality == 'verypoor') {increase interleave, reset poorcount;}
      elseif (quality == 'poor') {increase poorcount;}
      elseif (quality == 'ok') {decrease poorcount, decrease goodcount;}
      elseif (quality == 'good') {increase goodcount;}

}

if (poorcount >= $pc) {increase interleave;}
if (goodcount >= $gc) {decrease interleave;}


Note
The above is a simplified pseudo code 
We dont know the acceptable trigger for $gc nor $pc
"increase interleave" should be taken to mean increase stability by applying interleaving/increase interleaving depth/increase SNRm / apply banding


We know what those steps are for BTw (I have them somewhere), we dont know what the steps are for BToR fttc.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:10:45 PM by kitz »
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ColinS

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2013, 07:04:55 PM »

Colin whats this asking for proof business?
It is simply the Scientific Method
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Black Sheep

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Re: Interleaving - BToR DLM
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2013, 08:26:11 PM »

Downstream Profiles (Mbps)

   
Rate cap level 36   80   40
Rate cap level 35   74   37
Rate cap level 34   67   33
Rate cap level 33   60   30
Rate cap level 32   54   27
Rate cap level 31   49   25
Rate cap level 30   44   22
Rate cap level 29   40   20
Rate cap level 28   35   17.5
Rate cap level 27   32.4   16.2
Rate cap level 26   30   15
Rate cap level 25   27.4   13.7
Rate cap level 24   25   12.5
Rate cap level 23   22.4   11.2
Rate cap level 22   20   10
Rate cap level 21   18   9
Rate cap level 20   16.5   8.2
Rate cap level 19   15   7.5
Rate cap level 18   13.1   6.5
Rate cap level 17   11.4   5.7
Rate cap level 16   10   5
Rate cap level 15   8.8   4.4
Rate cap level 14   7.9   3.9
Rate cap level 13   7.1   3.5
Rate cap level 12   6.4   3.2
Rate cap level 11   5.8   2.9
Rate cap level 10   5.2   2.6
Rate cap level 9   4.7   2.3
Rate cap level 8   4.2   2.1
Rate cap level 7   3.8   1.9
Rate cap level 6   3.4   1.7
Rate cap level 5   3.1   1.5
Rate cap level 4   2.7   1.3
Rate cap level 3   2.5   1.2
Rate cap level 2   2.2   1.1
Rate cap level 1   2   0.128

Upstream Profiles (Mbps)


Rate cap level 18   20   10
Rate cap level 17   19   10
Rate cap level 16   17   8
Rate cap level 15   15   7.5
Rate cap level 14   12   6
Rate cap level 13   10   5
Rate cap level 12   8.5   4.2
Rate cap level 11   7.2   3.6
Rate cap level 10   6   3
Rate cap level 9   5   2.5
Rate cap level 8   4.3   2.1
Rate cap level 7   3.7   1.8
Rate cap level 6   3.2   1.2
Rate cap level 5   2.7   1.3
Rate cap level 4   2.3   1.1
Rate cap level 3   2   1
Rate cap level 2   1.3   0.5
Rate cap level 1   0.8   0.128


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